Inheritance of "Versorgungsausgleich" obligations: success!

[arunadasi 7,074]

Not trying to be morbid here, just thinking ahead and being realistic. My German husband is a good deal older than I am (I am 56) and since I am in excellent health and he suffers from a chronic illness, I am likely to outlive him. I am his second wife. He receives a pension, from which he pays his first wife a good chunk as "Versorgungsausgleich". If he should die before me I will get a "Witwenrente"; does anyone know if I will have to continue paying the Versorgungsausgleich to the first wife out of that?

[PandaMunich 16,594]

Disclaimer: I don't really know about this and am not a lawyer (officially only a lawyer can advise you in Germany...), but I've googled and came up with following answers:

If the divorce took place before 1.7.1977 (very unlikely, since you use the term Versorgungsausgleich and that was introduced only after this date) and your husband PERSONALLY paid his ex-wife each month, you as the inheritor will have to keep up the pension, but not in the full amount:

1. if you married your husband before 1.1.2002, you will get 60% of his present pension as Witwenrente

2. if you married later, you will get 55% of his present pension as Witwenrente if you were married more than 1 year

Example: First marriage duration 10 years, second marriage duration 30 years. The pension for the ex-wife from the first marriage is 10/40, i.e a quarter of the above Witwenrente, the wife from the second marriage gets 30/40, i.e. three quarters of the above Witwenrente.

 

However, since you use the word Versorgungsausgleich, this means the ex-wife's rental claims were split off at the time of divorce which took place after 1977 and went entirely into her own rental claims account, so that the Deutsche Rentenversicherung pays her every month her part directly. If that is the case you will get:

1. if you married your husband before 1.1.2002, you will get 60% of his present pension as Witwenrente

2. if you married later, you will get 55% of his present pension as Witwenrente if you were married more than 1 year

And the Deutsche Rentenversicherung will continue to pay the ex-wife and it's none of your business.

[arunadasi 7,074]

Wow, amazing you were able to google all of that --I was googling for hours and found nothing! That is a relief. We married in 1996 so I'm safe.

Thank you so much! Even if you're not a lawyer, this does sound right.

[HEM 11,075]

Since OP is living in the UK (according to the profile) one should not necessarily assume that German regulations apply...

[arunadasi 7,074]

Yes, they do, as it's a German pension. They pay it wherever in the world you live.

[PandaMunich 16,594]

Just some more information I found here:

http://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/...c95536bodyText6

 

If you have any kind of own income (from a job, rental, interest payments, shares, etc.) the Witwenrente is reduced:

- up to 693,53 Euro per month don't count

- any amount above that only counts with 40%

Example: you have own income of 1000 Euro

--> the amount of your Witwenrente will be reduced by 0,4*(1000-693,53)€ = 122,58€

 

You have fill in an application form to get the Witwenrente, it doesn't come automatically.

 

Sterbevierteljahr = you will get your husband's full pension for the first 3 months after his death, in these first 3 months it doesn't amtter what own income you have, you always get his full pension.

 

You can ask for an advance payment on your Witwenrente (this makes sense since processing your application for Witwenrente may take up to 3 months) simply by going within the first 30 days after his death to any postal office and filling in a form they have there. The advance is 3 months his full pension.

 

The Deutsche Rentenversicherung offers free advice on the Witwenrente (so you can avoid a lawyer), either by phone 0800 1000 4800 (no call charges since it's an 0800 number), or in one of their many consultation bureaus: http://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/...html__nnn=true

[Bipa 5,814]

A little off-topic, but perhaps worth mentioning. Here's something to watch out for, and happened to my German sister-in-law last year when her husband died. Because she was earning more than he was (both working), the German authorities decided that she was the primary breadwinner. As a result, she gets ZERO Witwenrente. She tried lawyers and appeals, but the ruling stands. So now she's supporting a kid in university and another in highschool that wants to go to university, and money has suddenly become quite tight. She's working two jobs now. :(

[PandaMunich 16,594]

@Bipa: I know it's just a sop, but her kids should get Halbwaisenrente, i.e. each should get 10% of the pension their father would have got if he could work no longer (=10% of the Rente wegen voller Erwerbsminderung des Versicherten):

http://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/...html__nnn=true

[arunadasi 7,074]

Thanks to everyone who answered and provided useful information. I think I shall call that number at some time.

[kitkat64 461]

@Bipa - that is sad however, it could have been avoided easily. When my husband and I bought our house a little over 3 years ago (we were not married at that time), we both took out life insurance policies with each other as the beneficiaries to protect the remaining spouse. Our house is far too expensive for either one of us to afford to keep living there without the income of the other. We didn't want to be faced with the heartbreak of losing your partner and then worrying about how to pay for the house. We also went to the DeutscheRentenversicherung office and discussed our situation (he is German, I am American) - what will we get based on our income when we retire? What if one dies? What if one becomes disabled and cannot work, etc.

 

Maybe we are just cautious about this stuff but, neither one of use likes surprises (well, little surprises that come in a blue box and say Tiffany are good, but you know what I mean).

[Bipa 5,814]

Yeah, it was a real bummer. Had my Brother-in-law died a little sooner, then the full pension would have been paid out. The couple hadn't kept up with the legal changes which just emphasizes the importance of reviewing your arrangements every few years. What makes financial sense today might not be as good a choice next year if something or other gets reformed.

 

The children do get a small amount of money, but it really is a pittance.

[arunadasi 7,074]

That story is really a cautionary tale. I am trying to figure out how and if it applies to me. My husband has always been the breadwinner, I was a Stay at Home Mom and my own Rente (it has been calculated) will be something like Euros 179. Yet a few years ago I had a business going which earned me quite a bit of money over a short period of time--more than my husband, in fact. Since he has been ill and I am caring for him the business has fizzled out so that my own income is now only a trickle of about Euros 3000 a year, and we are living from his pension. But even when I earned well (it lasted about four years) I did not pay into a pension scheme. I am wondering if, at a later date, (ie when he is no longer here) i should go back into that business and it should blossom; what would happen then?

[kitkat64 461]

This is why you need to make an appointment with the German retirement people and ask them. I'll tell you, it was a real eye opener. For example, if I die tomorrow, my husband won't get a penny of my german retirement money or anything as a widower because he is less than 43 years old...unless, of coure, we have a child and then it changes.

[arunadasi 7,074]

I wasn't sure if to open this old thread or start a new one; decided on the former course to keep the topic on one thread.

 

Something unexpected has happened: my husband's ex-wife has died.

 

So, I thought that it made sense that the Versorgungsausgleich would now stop -- it's EUR 860 paid to her pension fund directly from my husband's pension.

Seems that that was a naive thought. I called the pension office of his former "Dienstherr" and they said I could certainly apply to have the payments stopped, but that it wouldn't work -- they would continue.

 

I tried to get my head around that but the guy said it was too complicated to explain. Basically, if she has been a Rentner for longer than 36 months he has to continue paying "her". (I guess this means, paying the Rentenversicherungsanstalt).

 

I am just wondering if this is going to go on forever, or what? Yes, I need to go to the nearest Rentenberater myself and discuss it thoroughly, but I am in the UK right now and won't get back to Germany till mid-June.

 

She has been a Rentner since 1941. She's two years older than him, but he went into early pension so has been paying the Versprgungsausglish since 2008. As far as I know, she also ran a business (a laundry) even while she was receiving her Rente, and as a result had a much higher income than him. Now he has gone into a care home; his pension easily covers that but it leaves not too much for me to live on (but still more than Arbeitslosengeld). We have two kids still at UNiversity (one about to graduate this year). The EUR 860 extra would be quite nice!

 

It does seem unfair that he should have to continue paying the EUR 860 for years and years -- how long???

Does anyone have any information, until I can get over there and have a talk with someone?

[arunadasi 7,074]

Just found this sentence here:

 

 

Auskunftspflicht; Erlöschen des Ausgleichsanspruchs

 

Für den Versorgungsausgleich nach § 1587b BGB gilt § 1580 BGB entsprechend.

 

Mit dem Tod des Berechtigten erlischt der Ausgleichsanspruch.

 

Der Anspruch auf Entrichtung von Beiträgen (§ 1587b Abs. 3 BGB) erlischt außerdem, sobald der schuldrechtliche Versorgungsausgleich nach § 1587g Abs. 1 Satz 2 BGB verlangt werden kann.

That seems pretty clear to me...

[arunadasi 7,074]

Well, some more googling brought up the explanation:

 

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article13360033/Wird-Rentenausgleich-nach-Tod-der-Ex-zurueckgedreht.html

 

Bummer!

[arunadasi 7,074]

Is the air clear? No beasties around? Then OK, it's safe for me to post!

 

Good News!!!

 

Last year, the incomparable PandaMunich sent me an article (not sure if it was this exact one) that reported a new development: someone in the same situation had initiated a judicial decision on the payment of Versorgungsausgleich after the death of the ex-partner, and won.

 

https://www.tz.de/muenchen/stadt/muenchen-renten-wahnsinn-muenchner-musste-viel-geld-fuer-verstorbene-ex-frau-zahlen-11607444.html

 

Quote

Der Münchner Pensionär Waldenmaier versuchte zunächst, mit Anwälten der Bundeswehr gegen die Unsinns-Zahlung zu kämpfen. „Doch die sagten mir nur: Keine Chance!“ Doch dann lernte er zufällig einen Germeringer Pensionär kennen, der ebenfalls für seine tote Ex zahlen musste. „Er erzählte mir, dass er es mithilfe eines Rechtsbeistandes aus Pforzheim geschafft hatte, aus der verrückten Nummer rauszukommen.“ Waldenmaier wandte sich an diesen Rentenberater: Rudi Werling hilft seit Jahren Betroffenen aus ganz Deutschland – und konnte allein in Bayern bei mehreren Dutzend Fällen erreichen, dass der Versorgungsausgleich eingestellt werden konnte, oft auch nach langjährigem Renten­bezug. Auch bei Waldenmaier hatte Experte Werling Erfolg: Im Mai 2018 entschied das Familien­gericht München, dass der Pensionär nicht länger für seine tote Ex-Frau zahlen muss. 

 

 

Google translate:

 

Quote

The Munich pensioner Waldenmaier first tried to fight the nonsense payment with lawyers from the Bundeswehr. “But they just told me: No chance!” But then he happened to meet a Germeringer pensioner who also had to pay for his dead ex. "He told me that he had managed to get out of the crazy number with the help of a lawyer from Pforzheim." Waldenmaier turned to this pension advisor: Rudi Werling has been helping those affected from all over Germany for years - and was able to reach several dozen cases in Bavaria alone that the pension adjustment could be discontinued, often even after many years of drawing a pension. Expert Werling was also successful at Waldenmaier: In May 2018, the Munich Family Court decided that the pensioner no longer had to pay for his dead ex-wife.

 

She suggested that I should do the same. So I did. I contacted the lawyer mentioned in that article, Mr Werling of Pforzheim, and he fought the case for me.

 

Early September 2020, the good news: I won!

It's now rechtskraeftig. That means I get several hundred Euros more of my widow's pension, as well as back payment up to 1st October last year. Quite a windfall!

 

So I'm posting this for your information: if you, or someone you know, is in the same situation, let them know that they can fight it and win. At the moment there are two lawyers in Germany who are representing pensioners in this situation, as outlined in this summary:

 

https://www.freiburg-nachrichten.de/2017/10/21/neue-urteile-stirbt-die-ex-frau-bekommt-man-als-rentner-teile-des-versorgungsausgleichs-zurueck/
 

I do think, though, that I'm the first widow of a pensioner in Germany to have won such a case. 

[fraufruit 41,956]

All Hail Panda!!!!!

 

Happy for you and your great news!

[RedMidge 6,638]

Very useful news, and great to hear of your 2020 windfall. Panda comes to the rescue.

And nice to see you back here- ignore the beasties!

[john g. 37,689]

Brilliant news and welcome back, arunadasi!🙏🏻

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