Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

Well, Ulysses, you don't get the point about the difference between what my grandfather was (a stateless political refugee) and what people who aren't persecuted politically and who come to the US illegally for economic reasons are.

 

It is fallacious to conflate people who come illegally to the US for economic reasons with those who come seeking political asylum because the latter have been persecuted on political or religious grounds (criteria for political asylum) and the former have not. The latter are not in the US illegally, and I am not suggesting that genuine asylum seekers be sent back. I hope you understand this. Those who wish to come for economic reasons should do so legally.

 

Now, which quote were you referring to?

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-Almost every person in the US illegally has no excuse for being in the US illegally, as they, for the most part, voluntarily entered the US illegally.

 

What quote is your evidence Ulysses?

 

You don't know what policies of the current or previous US administrations I support or don't- in fact, if you have been paying attention you would know that I did not support taking action in Iraq in 2003. A certain number of TTers demonize the entire US, not just the government, and it is primarily this demagoguery that I criticize.

 

As for having a choice about being illegal, if you voluntarily came to the US illegally, you had a choice, and you chose to come illegally.

As for your family's alleged lack of support for the apartheid regime, did they refrain from paying taxes, for example? Did they try to emigrate to Europe or elsewhere?

The second time now, there's your quote. And funnily enough, you've provided a second bit of evidence in the second quote(see bold).I don't criticise the entire US. I only criticise the government. Your problem is that any criticism of America is wrong. You and Jules and belong together.

 

No, my parents did not refrain from paying taxes. I don't think they really wanted to land up in jail and besides, they wouldn't have been much help there. What does emigrating have to do with it?

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Well, Ulysses, you don't get the point about the difference between what my grandfather was (a stateless political refugee) and what people who aren't persecuted politically and who come to the US illegally for economic reasons are.

 

It is fallacious to conflate people who come illegally to the US for economic reasons with those who come seeking political asylum because the latter have been persecuted on political or religious grounds (criteria for political asylum) and the former have not. The latter are not in the US illegally, and I am not suggesting that genuine asylum seekers be sent back. I hope you understand this. Those who wish to come for economic reasons should do so legally.

 

Now, which quote were you referring to?

Interesting. Would the potato famine classify as a political reason or economic one?

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So when the choices are illegal immigration or you're family starving...how voluntary is it then?

How do you know all who come to the US illegally (and Mexico is the top source) are starving? You don't, so what was that you said about assuming? Is starvation rampant in the prime sending countries for illegals in the US? Should the US be required to take every person in the world you say is starving?

 

Are you aware of how much money gets paid to smugglers who bring people into the US illegally? Starving people don't have money to pay smugglers, for example.

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Interesting. Would the potato famine classify as a political reason or economic one?

The Irish potato famine occurred in the 1840s. Not a valid comparison. There was no restriction on immigration then. Do you wish to bring your homeland back to the 1840s?

 

I see that you have failed to cite a quote which supports your false claim of me "treating people in the US illegally like dirt".

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There was a very good article in the Economist a few years back arguing for the relaxation of border controls. Basically, the gist of it was that the easier you make it for people to enter a country the more likely it is that they'll leave. The reason they don't leave is because it's so bloody difficult getting in in the first place.

 

Since most Americans are immigrants and a lot came due to economic persecution, I find it hypocritical that they don't want anymore, starving or not.

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How do you know all who come to the US illegally (and Mexico is the top source) are starving? You don't, so what was that you said about assuming? Is starvation rampant in the prime sending countries for illegals in the US? Should the US be required to take every person in the world you say is starving?

No you missed my point, it was an example of how a voluntary choice, may not be very voluntary at all. I never claimed that they all came over due to starvation.

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The Irish potato famine occurred in the 1840s. Not a valid comparison.

...and when was this famous biblical grandfather of yours born?

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The Irish potato famine occurred in the 1840s. Not a valid comparison. There was no restriction on immigration then. Do you wish to bring your homeland back to the 1840s?

 

I see that you have failed to cite a quote which supports your false claim of me "treating people in the US illegally like dirt".

This whole bloody thread is evidence. Money is more important to you than people's welfare. Who's going to pay for it? That's your biggest worry. Thank fuck, you're not a doctor.

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No you missed my point, it was an example of how a voluntary choice, may not be very voluntary at all. I never claimed that they all came over due to starvation.

I did. He's picking on my usage of words because that's how pathetic his argument is. Trying to miss the wood for the trees.

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-Almost every person in the US illegally has no excuse for being in the US illegally, as they, for the most part, voluntarily entered the US illegally.

This is your grounds for saying someone is being treated like dirt? First of all, it's a true statement. Legal immigration to the US is possible, and as a matter of fact it is not unusual to have a family in which some members are in the US legally and some are illegal. Family reunification is permitted under US law, and some choose to come illegally instead.

 

Treating someone like dirt means someone must feel the brunt of some action. That isn't the case with this mild, and accurate statement.

 

Do you think your family treated people like dirt for helping to fund the apartheid regime?

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No you missed my point, it was an example of how a voluntary choice, may not be very voluntary at all. I never claimed that they all came over due to starvation.

Can you prove any came illegally due to starvation? If they were starving, they could have come as refugees, i.e., legally. So you bring up something irrelevant. We're talking about a concrete problem, one which requires concrete solutions. Try to stick to the facts.

 

 

This whole bloody thread is evidence. Money is more important to you than people's welfare. Who's going to pay for it? That's your biggest worry. Thank fuck, you're not a doctor.

False statement on your part, and perhaps you should read my suggestions for solutions on how to improve the welfare of people in the US with regards to health insurance.

 

As far as paying for unlimited health care for unlimited numbers of people illegally in the US for an unlimited duration of time, anyone who advocates such an expensive proposition better have some idea how to pay for it.

 

What do you think of Germany's policies with regards to health care for those here illegally? How much more of your salary do you want to be taken from you to pay for the health care of anyone who comes to Germany illegally?

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This is your grounds for saying someone is being treated like dirt? First of all, it's a true statement. Legal immigration to the US is possible, and as a matter of fact it is not unusual to have a family in which some members are in the US legally and some are illegal. Family reunification is permitted under US law, and some choose to come illegally instead.

 

Treating someone like dirt means someone must feel the brunt of some action. That isn't the case with this mild, and accurate statement.

Do you think your family treated people like dirt for helping to fund the apartheid regime?

Nice try mate, but no cigar. My family criticised the apartheid regime. They also illegally went into black areas to help the people there. I have never once defended the apartheid regime yet you tirelessly defend everything in America regardless of whether it is wrong or right.

 

You though make it sound as if people choose to be born in a fucked-up country, that they choose to be destitute and that they then choose to go to the US seeking another life. Sounds rather reminiscent of how America came about in the first place, doesn't it? That is where your "mild and accurate" statement becomes exactly what it is.

 

Just to refute your crap defence. If legal immigration is possible, why are illegals such a problem then? Why are there so many? Clearly, it is not so easy to immigrate legally.

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Can you prove any came illegally due to starvation? If they were starving, they could have come as refugees, i.e., legally. So you bring up something irrelevant. We're talking about a concrete problem, one which requires concrete solutions. Try to stick to the facts.

False statement on your part, and perhaps you should read my suggestions for solutions on how to improve the welfare of people in the US with regards to health insurance.

 

As far as paying for unlimited health care for unlimited numbers of people illegally in the US for an unlimited duration of time, anyone who advocates such an expensive proposition better have some idea how to pay for it.

 

What do you think of Germany's policies with regards to health care for those here illegally? How much more of your salary do you want to be taken from you to pay for the health care of anyone who comes to Germany illegally?

I'll give it to you this way. My mother passed away from cancer. Due to universal health care she was able to receive treatment. That means other people paid for her medical treatment. I'm pretty sure you've seen someone suffer from cancer. I would hope you wouldn't just say, sorry, you need to go back to your home country because we don't have the money to treat everyone like you, especially when in said country they would be screwed. I see your conscience has a price tag. It's sad that there are still people like you around. Look after yourself and fuck the rest.

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Nice try mate, but no cigar. My family criticised the apartheid regime. They also illegally went into black areas to help the people there. I have never once defended the apartheid regime yet you tirelessly defend everything in America regardless of whether it is wrong or right.

I have no idea if your family comprised this heroic "Widerstand" or not, but you have tipped your hand once again. Your criticism of me is due to the fact that you have something against the US and have a problem with me countering the slander and hyperbole against my country. You don't know what I think or say about every issue involving my country; however, it's a great country and I will counter those who tirelessly slander the US regardless. There are differences of opinion, and if I disagree with you and the rest of the anti-US crowd, I have every right to counter false allegations and the like.

 

 

You though make it sound as if people choose to be born in a fucked-up country, that they choose to be destitute and that they then choose to go to the US seeking another life. Sounds rather reminiscent of how America came about in the first place, doesn't it? That is where your "mild and accurate" statement becomes exactly what it is. Just to refute your crap defence. If legal immigration is possible, why are illegals such a problem then? Why are there so many? Clearly, it is not so easy to immigrate legally.

It is often not easy to immigrate legally; however, that's no excuse for coming illegally. Remember, these are not refugees from political or religious persecution or they would be applying for refugee status and getting political asylum. No one has an absolute right to entry to the US except for US citizens and permanent residents, yet you imply they do. No such right exists either in domestic US law, or in international law.

 

In case you haven't noticed, the world is a little bit different than it was in the 18th century. Policies have to change with the times. You wouldn't want to recreate the US of the late 18th century would you? But you seem to insist that today's immigration policy be the same as that of over 200 years ago.

 

There are, unfortunately, many people living in poverty today. The US cannot take them all, nor is it required to do so under any treaty or the US constitution. Feel free to advocate completely open borders for South Africa if you wish. It doesn't work for the US, and I don't think it would for RSA either.

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I'll give it to you this way. My mother passed away from cancer. Due to universal health care she was able to receive treatment. That means other people paid for her medical treatment. I'm pretty sure you've seen someone suffer from cancer. I would hope you wouldn't just say, sorry, you need to go back to your home country because we don't have the money to treat everyone like you, especially when in said country they would be screwed. I see your conscience has a price tag. It's sad that there are still people like you around. Look after yourself and fuck the rest.

Ulysses, you have my condolences for your family's loss. I understand how difficult it is to lose a family member.

 

I assume that wherever your mother was living during her treatment, she was there legally. I oppose unlimited health care for those in the US illegally (they are entitled to emergency treatment) because they aren't supposed to be in the US to begin with. The US cannot afford to provide health care to everyone in the world, and if it attempted to do so, it would not be able to provide for the needs of its own citizens and permanent residents.

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Your criticism of me is due to the fact that you have something against the US and have a problem with me countering the false slander and hyperbole against my country. [/quote

 

What are you talking about? False slander! What is slander? Or is this American English? ..or perhaps check your use of the collocation. We hate American sloppiness here in Europe, or hadn't you realised?

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Kinda like the sloppiness of (mis)using the quote feature?

 

;) just in time for the edit!

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Kinda like the sloppiness of (mis)using the quote featuer?

and a bit like sloppy spelling :)

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Can you prove any came illegally due to starvation? If they were starving, they could have come as refugees, i.e., legally. So you bring up something irrelevant. We're talking about a concrete problem, one which requires concrete solutions. Try to stick to the facts.

Can you prove that none came due to starvation? Are you sure that to feed a poverty stricken family that can't make ends meet and are struggling to feed themselves, the father of said family could waltz into the states legally to earn a few more bucks picking corn? Everything is not black and white when it comes to the illegal immigration problem. Try not to be a condescending twit.

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