Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

If you had read the CDC document, you would know that I am right about the 18,000 people dieing each year due to lack of health care. But obviously you didn't. If you are claiming to have read it through, you must be the liar. But enough. You aren't here for a real discussion. You're a pointless troll. Goodbye.

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Yeah, Carm I guess I am supposed to agree with whatever rubbish is served up by others just because you agree with it. No one else offered opinions either, right?

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Well Kat, that's about what I expected from you. Feel free to donate your alimony check to a free clinic in the US, BTW, since you feel so strongly about spending unlimited amounts other people's money, which you seem to think grows on trees in the US.

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I am trained as a Registered Nurse, work for five surgeons in Washington, DC when not event planning and I can tell you that I feel everyone in the USA should have a basic health benefit, those who want to pay more to see a Private Doctor should be able to...no problem.however the doctors would still have to see covered patients as well and not be allowed to opt out of the system to just see the wealthier patients who would be willing to pay extra.

 

The problem we see is that EVEN people who DO have insurance do not have enough coverage to pay their bills, as the for profit insurance companies constantly deny the claims. Our practice does not contract with any insurance carrier except Medicare. We do file the claims for our patients, however. In addition each surgeon sees two free charity patients per month, most of the time they are illegals from Mexico or South America, and often do not speak English. The clinic that sends them does not ask about immigration status--we treat them free of charge and the hospital does as well. While we are happy to treat them, they really do not belong here if they are illegal. I see far too many American citizens who have no health insurance because their employers cannot afford to run a profitable business and be competitive if they offer health insurance. Those companies that hire illegal immigrants, pay less than or just at minimum wage and do not take out taxes. Mostly construction, office cleaners, domestic workers, gardeners--these people while hard working do not have degrees and can often not even read their own language, even though they speak it. They are taken advantage of becuase they are illegal. Healthcare is a right and it is a privilege to be a doctor or a nurse--not just an industry that profits from illness.

 

If I am injured while in Germany, I will have to pay out of my pocket most likely, however the fees are far lower there than here in the USA. Under a Universal system, the third party payors must be outlawed and it should be set up with government input--much like the rest of the industrialised world. People cannot help it if they get cancer through no fault of their own (unless they smoke) and they should have the right to be seen by a doctor and seek treatment without worrying about losing their homes, cars, savings and businesses to a greedy for-profit system. Insurance has caused the doctors and hospital fees to rise dramatically. If I lose my insurance here, even while employed, then it would be VERY expensive to get coverage on my own and if I were not in tip top health--I might not even get that. This is not fair or humane.

 

Something has to be done to secure out borders, illegals should have no rights--as for the ones that are here--anyone can have an emergency and should be medically treated under those circumstances until they can return home. Unfortunately, we only hear about the illegals who are uneducated and poor who cross the border for a better life--there are educated Mexicans but they apparently are not crossing the border to work here.

 

I have a friend whose father is a physician in Mexico and they have luxurious private clinics in Mexico for the wealthy and educated upper classes, some Americans cross the borders to use those clinics. They are much cheaper than what we have in America and are well run. I have personally know business owners who had only themselves and maybe one employee who could not afford health insurance here and so they went to Mexico and paid with a VISA card.

 

Illegals in some states that have clamped down on illegal immigration are seeing the illegals self deporting either to other states or back to their home countries--where they really belong. Georgia is one of those states.

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If you had read the CDC document, you would know that I am right about the 18,000 people dieing each year due to lack of health care. But obviously you didn't. If you are claiming to have read it through, you must be the liar. But enough. You aren't here for a real discussion. You're a pointless troll. Goodbye.

Still no proof it's in the CDC document (try searching for any of the keywords or the 18,000 figure) but the World Socialist website cites a study conducted by the Institute of Medicine:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/ins-m25.shtml

 

Here is an article that criticizes the findings you tout and some other statistics bandied about:

 

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page...T20071011a.html

Tanner said it is "virtually impossible" from the data cited in the IOM study to say outright that 18,000 people a year die because they don't have health insurance.

 

"This was not set up like a typical scientific study, where you have two groups that are identical and you are able to track them and determine what happened to one group that has insurance versus one group that doesn't have insurance," he said.

 

Even the claim that 47 million Americans are without health insurance is questioned.

 

"That estimate dramatically overstates the extent of the actual problem," Tanner said.

 

"To begin with, about 14 million of those people -- almost a third -- are currently eligible for Medicaid, SCHIP, or other government programs and simply haven't signed up for those programs. In addition, about 8 to 10 million of those folks are actually illegal aliens and, of the remainder, a healthy portion has voluntarily gone without it," he added.

 

"The reality is that most of them are actually uninsured for a very short period of time. Some 40 percent are uninsured for four months or less," he said. "They essentially cycle in and out of the insurance market because insurance is tied to your job. When you lose your job, you lose your insurance. Then you regain a job and you regain insurance."

 

Many of those without insurance, in fact, are young, healthy - and actually have substantial incomes.

 

"In many cases, they are simply making a rational decision that unless they get hit by a truck, they probably aren't going to need health insurance," Tanner said. "Given the high cost of insurance, they are choosing to self-insure."

 

 

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba416/

Two recent reports associate lack of health insurance coverage with less access to health care services and worse health outcomes. One study is written by Jack Hadley of the Urban Institute and published by the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, the other by an Institute of Medicine (IOM) committee, with support from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

 

The two have much in common. Neither adds original research, instead compiling the results of previous studies. Both acknowledge the limitations of this approach. Also, both identify a correlation between lack of insurance and poor health. But neither is able to determine whether one causes the other or each is caused by something else entirely. In particular, the studies fail to consider the degree to which poverty and lack of education may cause both poor health and non-insurance. Yet there is evidence that income and education are more important determinants of health than insurance.

 

IOM guesstimates that 18,000 people a year die from lack of health insurance coverage. Such a number is handy for media sound bites, but has no factual basis. The Urban Institute's Hadley acknowledges that these "observational studies… cannot answer the question of whether health insurance directly affects health outcomes."

http://www.freemarketcure.com/singlepayermyths.php

 

In designing solutions that will be successful to the problems that do exist, it's helpful to know as much as possible exactly what the scale and nature of the problems with the current system are.

 

Here is the IOM report:

http://www.iom.edu/Object.File/Master/17/7...nglishFINAL.pdf

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I don't think it's surprising that some would call others Nazis if they said it is ok to leave a person to die because they didn't have a medical insurance because they are illegal immigrants; funny that this is an issue in a country made up of immigrants.

 

It is then these very people who preach to the rest of the world about the respect of human rights.

 

Disclaimer: I am not calling anyone a Nazi. Merely pointing out that to me there's not much difference between leaving someone to die - where have the good Samaritans gone or has that been deleted from the Republicans' Bibles? - and systematically killing people.

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Will someone, anyone, show where someone has allegedly said that it is OK to leave a person to die because they don't have medical insurance due to an illegal presence in a country?

 

A few more points:

 

-It is a federal law in the US that emergency health care must be rendered to anyone who seeks it; therefore it is completely inaccurate to say that anyone would be left to die due to a lack of health insurance.

 

-There is nothing preventing those in the US illegally (many, perhaps even most whom send at least some of their salaries back to their countries of origin in the form of remittances) from purchasing private health insurance. As for those in the US legally, some uninsured people decline to sign up for health insurance coverage through their employer for which they are qualified, others don't sign up for Medicaid, yet others won't go to the doctor out of stubborness, or another reason. They can also purchase health insurance privately or go to a free clinic.

 

-Almost every person in the US illegally has no excuse for being in the US illegally, as they, for the most part, voluntarily entered the US illegally.

 

-Immigration status is nit checked when someone seeks treatment, and US borders are porous. Under a universal system that covered any person who came to the US illegally, there would then be no way to refuse any person treatment, no matter how long the duration of treatment and no matter how chronic the illness. Can we even begin to quantify the cost to taxpayers of treating unlimited numbers of people who are not even supposed to be in the US (and may indeed come solely for treatment) for an unlimited period of time with unlimited health problems?

 

I have yet to see the supporters of free, unlimited health care for those illegally in the US to even begin to address these points.

 

The demagogues are alive and well, but that's no surprise. This is not to say that coverage cannot be extended to all legal residents- it can, but we should not pretend it will be without significant cost, and, admittedly, the pecuniary cost is only one factor to consider in designing a system that covers everyone, albeit a very important one.

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-It is a federal law in the US that emergency health care must be rendered to anyone who seeks it; therefore it is completely inaccurate to say that anyone would be left to die due to a lack of health insurance.

So people do not get left to die then, ever?

What happens post treatment, do the patients have to shell out x amount of thousands to cover the service? What if they can't pay?

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That's a good question, Timmeh. No one gets left to die. Many people do get bills; however, as I understand it, those bills are only sent to those legally resident in the US. Those in the US illegally don't seem to be subjected to collection, and their illegal status probably has something to do with that. If people can't pay the bill, they often declare bankruptcy.

 

I suggest the solution is having mandatory comprehensive insurance coverage, or a basic coverage and then a supplemental coverage. This would be mandatory- and I would suggest offering better tax deductions (full deductions) to employers and employees, plus subsidies to those with low incomes and the unemployed so they can afford the coverage. There won't be a free lunch, but the goal should be to get people covered, and comprehensively.

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-Almost every person in the US illegally has no excuse for being in the US illegally, as they, for the most part, voluntarily entered the US illegally.

Yes, I suppose it's voluntary when they risk their lives and their livelihoods for a better future. We all want to leave our homes, often our families too, for an uncertain future. You really think that the illegals in America didn't do it because their conditions forced them to? That just shows your whole attitude towards them. They're people just like you and me. But you treat them like dirt. Shame on you, Mr. "Descendant of an Auschwitz" survivor.

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Pretty disgraceful of you to falsely accuse me of "treating those illegally in the US like dirt". Unless you have any evidence that I have, you need to retract that false statement.

 

Can you honestly say that you know the situation of every person who came to the US illegally? Keep in mind that these are not people eligible for refugee status.

 

I knew that you weren't capable of addressing the issues I raised.

 

You have no business lecturing me and falsely accusing me of anything- you who grew up in apartheid South Africa. What have you ever done for anyone who was in the US illegally, or, for that matter, anyone who was illegally in South Africa or Europe? I have actually helped people out, regardless of immigration status. Doesn't mean I approved of their illegal status (the ones who were illegal).

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You have no business lecturing me and falsely accusing me of anything- you who grew up in apartheid South Africa.

I agree - Ulysses you should be ashamed of yourself for having had the cheek to grow up in apartheid South Africa. I'm shocked, shocked that you could even think of doing such a thing. And to make it worse, you proceed to lecture an American!

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Jeez Conquistador why can't you write a post without insulting the person you're debating with. Reading your posts is so painful because you do make valid points from time to time but they get buried by all the calling people discgraceful and demanding apologies and telling them they have no business and on and on. Would you want to engage in debate with someone who uses such tactics? Why do you feel you need to be so antagonistic?

 

Argue your case, stick to the facts and even if people disagree, they'll respect you for it if you know what you're talking about (which you seem to). We should be able to have a civilzed discussion without all the personal BS. No, you're certainly not the only one, I can only guess that perhaps someone hurt your feelings and you felt the need to attack them back but do you realize how childish your posts come across as? It's hard to take you seriously and hard as it may be to believe I actually want to because you obviously know a lot.

 

You're welcome to tell me to mind my own business or insult in some other way as this post is completely off topic and should be removed but it had to be said.

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I'll just ask you this ER, do you think what Ulysses said was appropriate? Do you think that he insulted me, and do you condemn him for what he posted? Keep in mind I that he made light of my grandfather's involuntary suffering and implied a moral equivalence between that and the experiences of those who voluntarily come to the US illegally.

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Pretty disgraceful of you to falsely accuse me of "treating those illegally in the US like dirt". Unless you have any evidence that I have, you need to retract that false statement.

 

Can you honestly say that you know the situation of every person who came to the US illegally? Keep in mind that these are not people eligible for refugee status.

 

I knew that you weren't capable of addressing the issues I raised.

 

You have no business lecturing me and falsely accusing me of anything- you who grew up in apartheid South Africa. What have you ever done for anyone who was in the US illegally, or, for that matter, anyone who was illegally in South Africa or Europe? I have actually helped people out, regardless of immigration status. Doesn't mean I approved of their illegal status (the ones who were illegal).

My evidence is your quote. So you ain't getting no retraction from me. You seem to be making a habit of demanding apologies. You're a bit slow in realising that 1. you're the common denominator and 2. they're not forthcoming.

 

As for growing up in South Africa, my family helped out those less fortunate as much as they could. Providing clothes, transport, food, you name it. Not once did we ever support the government - something which you seem to do all the time despite how patently wrong they are - and when we were allowed to vote we voted for the ANC.

 

You didn't approve of their "illegal" status? Are you thick? Do you think they would be illegal if they had a choice?

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My post was addressed to you alone. I have condemned Ulysses for similar behaviour in the past but that's beside the point. Is your response "it's ok for me to act this way because someone else started it"?

 

Do you hold yourself to your own standards or seek to match the lowest common denominator?

 

EDIT: Anyway I'm going to report my posts because they're way off topic I just thought you really should know how you come across.

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What quote is your evidence Ulysses?

 

You don't know what policies of the current or previous US administrations I support or don't- in fact, if you have been paying attention you would know that I did not support taking action in Iraq in 2003. A certain number of TTers demonize the entire US, not just the government, and it is primarily this demagoguery that I criticize.

 

As for having a choice about being illegal, if you voluntarily came to the US illegally, you had a choice, and you chose to come illegally.

 

As for your family's alleged lack of support for the apartheid regime, did they refrain from paying taxes, for example? Did they try to emigrate to Europe or elsewhere?

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I'll just ask you this ER, do you think what Ulysses said was appropriate? Do you think that he insulted me, and do you condemn him for what he posted? Keep in mind I that he made light of my grandfather's involuntary suffering and implied a moral equivalence between that and the experiences of those who voluntarily come to the US illegally.

You see that's the problem. You seem to think that suffering is exclusive to your grandfather and the 6 million other Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis. But it's not. There are many other people suffering in this world and they seek a better future in places like the US. People like you then come along and advocate that they should've stayed where they were. That's the same as having turned your grandfather around when he came to America and sent him back to Auschwitz.

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As for having a choice about being illegal, if you voluntarily came to the US illegally, you had a choice, and you chose to come illegally.

So when the choices are illegal immigration or you're family starving...how voluntary is it then?

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