Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

 

In Germany, a doctor who turns away someone with a life-threatening condition would be punished. But illegal immigrants who are treated in a hospital risk deportation, since the hospital is obliged to report them to the authorities. Some welfare organisations can refer uninsured people to doctors who will treat them for free. See this article in Deutsches Ärzteblatt.

 

There was a growing number of uninsured people in Germany (not only illegal residents, but for example freelancers with low income), which this year has led to making health insurance compulsory.

 

Regarding the U. S., without knowing the details of the problem, I think offering full coverage for illegal residents means indirectly sponsoring employers who take advantage of the labour of illegal migrants without paying taxes. Why should a state encourage this? Illegal residents should of course have access to emergency rooms and free clinics. I wonder, do they treat patients anonymously? And do they provide long-term treatment for severe chronic diseases which are very costly?

 

The problem of the unsecure living conditions of illegal residents should IMO be tackled by step by step legalizing the status of those already living in the country, while at the same time preventing new illegal immigration (and perhaps raising the quota for legal migrants from countries like Mexico).

Thanks for the information, RainyDays. I think the German experience is instructive.

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Based upon these posts, it looks like Lexicon might not make over 85000 USD annually, thus he qualifies for the US foreign earned income tax exclusion, and thus doesn't pay US taxes.

 

Lexicon, if you have been able to land the full time position mentioned below, or any other, I congratulate you!

 

 

Hi TT,

 

First of all before the crucifying starts, I looked through the visa's section and did a couple of searches but didn't find anything thta shot out as dealing with this specific issue. So here goes...

 

I came here a year ago as an English Teacher and have a visa that allows me to work as a freelancer. It's the Aufenthaltserlaubnis and states on the second page" "Gilt nur für die Tätigkeit als freier Mitarbeiter zur Ertailung von Englisch-Unterricht bei Inlingua Sprachschule Dessau auf Honorarbasis". Basically Valid only for the ability to work as a freelance employee English teacher with Inlingua Dessau on an honorarium basis.

This visa expires on the 20th of this month, and I am interested in applying for a job down in Augsburg. It's a permanent position and the ability to transfer this visa over to a proper one is the only thing the recruiter seems to be leery of.

 

So my question is, does anyone know how to go about applying for a regular permanent employment visa? is it different since I am already here and registered? Do I have to have a company sponsor me, is it a long process...all this stuff?

 

Basically has anyone actually done this?

 

In Berlin you do get screwed on the pay. Munich and Nuremberg are the places to be. But here you really have to be good to compete. If you can show you're worth the money, freelancers average between 20-30 per hour. Not all companies are on the 45-min deal here. But sometimes you end up with companies paying upward of €45 per hour.

 

On the other hand, if your skills are limited to a method-type school, so is your pay. Inlingua gives freelancers here €16, Berlitz €12, and Wallstreet 10-11.

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Conquistador as has been pointed out, you seem more than willing to assume whatever you want. Do I primarily teach English here in Germany? Yes. Do I make €16 per hour...yeah right. I wouldn't be in Germany if I made so little. Do I pay US taxes on my German income? No. Do I pay US taxes on my US income? Yes. Do I pay Mexican taxes on the consulting work I do for companies in Mexico? Again, yes.

 

I never said I was a resident of Mexico (as in I currently live there). You assumed that. I said I am a Legal Resident of Mexico. That means I pay taxes and maintain a registration with the government so that I can work there as I sometimes do. I like Chocolate but not with raisins. I don't make $85,000 per year. My shoes size is 9.5. It's also my penis size...anything else you want to know?

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Lexicon, that's a whole lot better than threatening violence. Sounds like you need, or already have, a good tax accountant.

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Man I never threatened violence. I did point out that people like to feel they can say or demand anything online while hiding behind the safety of their monitors. Whereas in public I would think they would never behave in such a way. Thus my statement that in person (which we are not) if you tried the crap you did, the only answer you would have gotten would have been my foot up your ass. Which in combination with the one that seems to be in your mouth currently would make for a rather crowded body.

 

How about this...we call a truce and quit talking about all these things that have NOTHING to do with whether the US should have universal healthcare...that is of course if by now being told that I do pay taxes (again) in the US that I do actually have the right to an opinion on the issue?

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Well, I would hardly say that there is a foot in my mouth right now. I was correct in saying that you don't make 85000 USD annually, and I had no way of knowing you also work in the US (not information previously available to me, nor in any way confirmed). I also correctly debunked claims you represented as factual. It would seem that your foot remains in your mouth.

 

As for being more circumspect in person, I don't think you would be associating Republicans with Nazism in front of some Republicans. If you would do such a thing, I wouldn't feel the least bit sorry for you if you were beaten to a pulp as a result.

 

You have every right to an opinion on the issue at hand in this thread (from which we have sadly strayed) regardless of whether you pay US taxes; however, a person who does not pay US taxes and does not live in the US would not bear the brunt of the policies you have advocated. I merely suggest keeping in mind those who do, since they obviously have a much higher stake in any solutions than non-residents who don't pay US taxes.

 

If you don't post anything more about the topics which are extraneous to this thread, I cannot imagine why I would otherwise be discussing them with you (on this thread). Obviously I don't have any ill will towards you since I stated about my congratulations in case you were able to land a permanent position.

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TexMunich, I partly answered your question, see quotation at the top of this page. Emergency rooms and doctors in general must treat anyone who has a possibly life-threatening condition. But illegal immigrants are in a dilemma, as they will subsequently face deportation. Illegal residents with a severe chronic illness in need of for example expensive medication also have a grave problem, because although there are a few doctors with their own office who would treat them anonymously and for free, the means of these doctors are of course limited.

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In France, everyone gets treated. No bills, no insurance necessary. The French health care system costs a lot less (I don't have the exact numbers but I remember reading it's a substantial figure) than in the US. So many people in the US are not getting treated, but the US still has the most expensive health care system in the world. Every year, 18,000 people in the US die because they have no health care. That's in the CDC document I linked earlier.

 

What did illegal immigrants ever do to you? They're just people looking for a better life. You figure they should die because of that? I just don't get your point at all.

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I presume this demagoguery is directed at me. Are you advocating spending unlimited amounts of money on health care for unlimited numbers of people who want to come to the US illegally, no matter what the condition (AIDS or other chronic illnesses, for example) and no matter how long the duration of the treatment required? How much do you think the US taxpayers should pay, and how specifically do you propose to pay for the unlimited health care of people who, by law, should not be in the US at all.

 

What did US taxpayers do to you that you want to put an unlimited burden on their paychecks? Lots of people are looking for a better life. Is it too much to ask that they do so legally?

 

On what page in the CDC document is that 18,000 figure found, Kat?

 

We can find ways to extend coverage to people who currently don't have it by using subsidies and tax breaks and implementing some reforms. I object to writing a blank check for the unlimited coverage you and a few others advocate for people who are in the US illegally and who will come to the US illegally in the future.

 

As for France, are they providing unlimited treatment for free for those in their country illegally? Any idea how much it costs, and who pays for it? Just why is a smaller percentage of French GDP than US GDP spent on health care?

 

As for not getting treated, you consistently ignore the fact that emergency treatment and free clinics are available. No surprise there from a person who can't admit she was proven wrong.

 

You still haven't shown anything to back up the underinsured claim you and Lexicon made. No surprise there, either. You have substituted emotion and demogoguery for facts.

 

Last, do not falsely claim that I or anyone else wants to see people who are in the US illegally die because they have broken US law and entered the US illegally. That is absolutely untrue. I want them tor respect US law and come legally and I want them and their employers to pay a fair share of their health care costs (whatever that fair share may be). I don't want US taxpayers to pay for unlimited amounts of health care for anyone who manages to reach the US illegally. Those who enter illegally are responsible for their actions. What's next Kat, any crime will be justfied by you if the lawbreaker cites a desire to "improve their lives". I am sure thieves and armed robbers would love to make that an affirmative defense.

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It's a crime that my tax money should go to pay for people who are illegally in our country.

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BGJ, Germany has, to their credit, gotten wise to that rubbish (which is probably why Kat started fulminating about France).

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Kat, the French health system might allocate the funds more efficiently than other countries (I think in Germany the health care costs are higher without people being healthier), but it's also in a financial crisis: There's a 11 bill. € deficit, which is why there is a health care reform under way Frankreich – Gesundheitsreform soll Einsparungen bringen. The average patient also pays a certain amount of the cost of ambulant treatment out of his own pocket and the majority takes out additional private insurance.

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Carm, I don't know how you make that leap of logic. No one has said or implied that, despite the demagogues falsely insisting otherwise. No, after five pages here is what it is:

 

The US should not provide unlimited duration, comprehensive free health care treatment to the rest of the world. Current law provides for emergency treatment for those in the US illegally, and that will not change (it's a humanitarian policy).

 

I personally think with the right mix of reforms and tax policy, much of which you outlined on page 1, we can cover every legal resident of the US, but we will be paying more for this, let's be honest about that.

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Kat, I don't see anything about that 18,00 figure you cite in the CDC document.

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20071122/hl_hs...ffordtoeatright

The health of lower-income people in the US could be improved with healthier diets:

People with more money eat more fruits and vegetables than those with less money, research shows. In turn, poorer people also assume a greater disease burden relative to their wealthier counterparts.

"Eating more fruits and vegetables would reduce the disease burden. That's why we have new guidelines. The science is very solid on that," said Diana Cassady, lead author of the first study, on food pricing.

Seems to me that subsidizing fruit and vegetable consumption for lower-income folks would be a great preventitive medicine.

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I presume this demagoguery is directed at me. Are you advocating spending unlimited amounts of money on health care for unlimited numbers of people who want to come to the US illegally, no matter what the condition (AIDS or other chronic illnesses, for example) and no matter how long the duration of the treatment required?

Actually, no. I didn't say that. Stabilize them and then send them home if you like. That is reasonable.

 

How much do you think the US taxpayers should pay, and how specifically do you propose to pay for the unlimited health care of people who, by law, should not be in the US at all.

Actually, we could treat them all for what is already being spent on health care in the US by ending the corruption and profiteering. But as I said, send the illegals home after stabilizing their lives.

 

What did US taxpayers do to you that you want to put an unlimited burden on their paychecks?

Who said anything about an unlimited burden? That's just what we have now. A good system would limit costs.

 

Lots of people are looking for a better life. Is it too much to ask that they do so legally?

No, but I also don't believe illegal immigration should be punishable by death.

 

On what page in the CDC document is that 18,000 figure found, Kat?

Read it yourself goddammit

 

We can find ways to extend coverage to people who currently don't have it by using subsidies and tax breaks and implementing some reforms. I object to writing a blank check for the unlimited coverage you and a few others advocate for people who are in the US illegally and who will come to the US illegally in the future.

Stingy?

 

As for France, are they providing unlimited treatment for free for those in their country illegally?

I don't know for sure. Why don't you do some research for a change, and let us know what you find.

 

Any idea how much it costs, and who pays for it?

Taxpayers, obviously.

 

Just why is a smaller percentage of French GDP than US GDP spent on health care?

Because they limit costs. See? A universal health care system is actually cheaper than your for-profit system, and everyone gets treated. Win win.

 

As for not getting treated, you consistently ignore the fact that emergency treatment and free clinics are available. No surprise there from a person who can't admit she was proven wrong.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Available where? Everywhere? Give me a few addresses of clinics you've visited for free. I guess if I'm homeless, I'll want to live under a bridge near one.

 

You still haven't shown anything to back up the underinsured claim you and Lexicon made. No surprise there, either. You have substituted emotion and demogoguery for facts.

For God's sake, man, do some of your own research! Just Google 'US Underinsured' and you'll get 1,250,000 links to information on the subject. The very first link will tell you: "In addition to the 45 million uninsured adults in the United States, another 16 million adults were underinsured in 2003, meaning their insurance did not adequately protect them against catastrophic health care expenses". If you don't believe that one, try another. There are plenty to choose from.

 

Last, do not falsely claim that I or anyone else wants to see people who are in the US illegally die because they have broken US law and entered the US illegally. That is absolutely untrue.

I don't see how you can say on the one hand that you want to deny them health care, but on the other, that you don't want them to die. Which is it? Either you feel they should get some amount of treatment, or you don't. Please clarify.

 

I want them tor respect US law and come legally and I want them and their employers to pay a fair share of their health care costs (whatever that fair share may be).

Sure, and in a perfect world, we could all afford it.

 

I don't want US taxpayers to pay for unlimited amounts of health care for anyone who manages to reach the US illegally. Okay, how about we agree to limit the care to stabilizing them enough for deportation? I could agree to that. But it must be done humanely.

 

Those who enter illegally are responsible for their actions. What's next Kat, any crime will be justfied by you if the lawbreaker cites a desire to "improve their lives".

I am sure thieves and armed robbers would love to make that an affirmative defense.

I just don't equate illegal immigration with armed robbery. Most Mexicans who come over illegally are providing needed services for harvests and domestic help. But if you really want to stop them, ( and I mean honestly want them out -and pay more for your fruit and veg and give up that gardener-, and don't actually just want to punish poor people for being poor) you don't go after the illegals. You go after the people hiring them. That's why they've come. Take away that reason, and they'll stop coming. Just like that.

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Kat, you are dishonest and also pretty arrogant if you think no one but you has researched this topic. No sign of the 18,000 figure, but no surprise there. Not the first time you have been caught out there on this thread by facts.

 

Also turns out that you have been in Germany for 20 years (according to you) so that probably means you haven't paid US taxes in a very long time. Bone up a little bit on what goes on in France as well.

 

Read what I have posted and open your mind a bit- then you will see my position on health care for those in the US illegally. If I were living in the US and had to pay a bit more for fruits and vegetables if that solves the illegal problem, so be it. No complaints there. I believe that is a red herring, though.

 

As for the availability of free clinics in the US, a person who has lived the past 20 years in Germany wouldn't know anything about that. As for the underinsured figure you cite in the previous post, that doesn't get to half of the US population, which was Lexikon's claim that I disputed. If you make the claim, or back up someone who does, you should be able to cite some reliable sources. I guess that is asking too much of a demagogue, though.

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Carm, I don't know how you make that leap of logic. No one has said or implied that, despite the demagogues falsely insisting otherwise. No, after five pages here is what it is:

no, as I see it, you seem to be cutting down everyones ideas, beliefs and opinions. You keep asking for facts, but are offering none of your own... just your opinion. And putting others down while at it. No wonder most have walked away from this discussion with you.

I am going to walk away now to. I see that Kat is going to keep at it for awhile with you, I wish her luck, you are like talking to a brick wall.

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