Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

Listen, let me put it to you simply.

 

I believe that anyone anywhere should be able to get health care if they are sick for the same reasons I wouldn't walk past a wounded animal without trying to help.

 

I believe that health care should be a right, not a privilege.

 

If someone is sick, they should receive help without question in the same way that the fire department responds to a fire without checking first to see if the property taxes are paid in full.

 

Health care should be a basic public service, paid for by any country that can afford it. The US can afford it. It's as simple as that.

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If they funneled a small amount away from military purposes they'd be able to provide care to everyone...and you never know, with fewer weapons they may not hurt as many people too

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Health care should be a basic public service, paid for by any country that can afford it. The US can afford it. It's as simple as that.

While I agree with what you are saying what level of service are you envisaging?

 

I'm fascinated by this debate as we use the national health service as a pawn in every election in the UK.

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1. Lexicon's claim was off by 1 million in 2006 from the Census Bureau - Ask the Centers for Disease Control and the number is worse: 54,5 million uninsured for at least part of the year prior to the interview http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrel...insur200706.pdf. Additionally, most of those who are insured, will find that they are actually underinsured should they have a catastrophic illness. You haven't debunked anything.

 

FACT: Millions of legal Americans have no health insurance.

FACT: Millions more are underinsured.

FACT: All first world countries in the world, except for the States, have some form of universal health care.

FACT: The existence of illegal aliens in the US or anywhere else doesn't change the three facts above.

 

Illegal aliens are no argument against universal health care, especially since most plans likely to be adopted would not even cover them. You've proven nothing.

 

I'll ignore the request for an apology. I do not apologize for being right.

Go back and read VERY CAREFULLY what was posted. You will see that you and Lexicon were wrong. Since you are trying to move the goalposts, I'll take a look at the CDC source; however, bear in mind the Census Bureau's own admission that reports of insurance coverage underreport insurance coverage.

 

FYI, I have taken no position here on universal health insurance per se. You and Lexicon have a problem with the truth and facts, so do not attempt to misrepresent anything I say (or for that matter do not say). Yes, an apology on your part would be very appropriate, particularly given your false slur of "prejudice".

 

One other thing- when was the last time you paid US taxes?

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@conquistador

 

I don't like so many people on Toytown replace logical debate with personal attacks. I honestly have no idea if you are a Republican, nor do I care. The side of this debate however that you arguing is a Republican talking point and most of the opponents of universal healthcare are Republicans as are most of the people who decry illegal immigrants for every problem they can think of.

 

As for why you feel you know more about my dealings with the Mexican authorities than I do, I have to say that feels a bit personal, petty, and offensive...but so goes Toytown.

 

@Kat

 

I agree completely. It goes so against the basic ideals of Americanism to deny such a basic right to so many.

 

@Timmeh

 

You are very right on this point. One other point I would like to make as a US vet is that the majority of those serving in that war are also afforded only the most basic and bare healthcare themsleves. Even though free healthcare is supposedly a major benefit of a military career, while on active duty that healthcare can be summarily denied due to any number of reasons including budget or the unwillingness of a commander to give a soldier a day off.

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While I agree with what you are saying what level of service are you envisaging?

 

I'm fascinated by this debate as we use the national health service as a pawn in every election in the UK.

I envision free doses of morphine administered by scantily clad nurses that look like kate beckinsale, is that doable?

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You and Lexicon have a problem with the truth and facts..

 

One other thing- when was the last time you paid US taxes?

OK Conquistador let me clarify my position on this (and I'm guessing also Kat's): If there is one single person in the United States who is denied access to basic healthcare, then there is one too many. I personally don't care if they are a US-born citizen, a legal resident, an illegal immigrant, or a German on Vacation at Disney World. If you need healthcare, you should be able to get it without worrying whether you can pay for it.

 

There is NOTHING in healthcare that is so expensive that we can't afford it as a country. Once you take the political bribes out of the process, healthcare should and would be an affordable system. But instead we view it as an industry and as such focus on profitability.

 

I'm glad HCA and Blue Cross/Blue Shield are rolling in dough. I'm not glad the people mopping their floors live in fear of accident or illness because they are one paycheck from homelessness as it is and they know a visit to the hospital would bankrupt them for the next 10 years.

 

And I pay US taxes all the time. I also pay German taxes. And, when I'm in Mexico I pay Mexican taxes.

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In Germany, a doctor who turns away someone with a life-threatening condition would be punished. But illegal immigrants who are treated in a hospital risk deportation, since the hospital is obliged to report them to the authorities. Some welfare organisations can refer uninsured people to doctors who will treat them for free. See this article in Deutsches Ärzteblatt.

 

There was a growing number of uninsured people in Germany (not only illegal residents, but for example freelancers with low income), which this year has led to making health insurance compulsory.

 

Regarding the U. S., without knowing the details of the problem, I think offering full coverage for illegal residents means indirectly sponsoring employers who take advantage of the labour of illegal migrants without paying taxes. Why should a state encourage this? Illegal residents should of course have access to emergency rooms and free clinics. I wonder, do they treat patients anonymously? And do they provide long-term treatment for severe chronic diseases which are very costly?

 

The problem of the unsecure living conditions of illegal residents should IMO be tackled by step by step legalizing the status of those already living in the country, while at the same time preventing new illegal immigration (and perhaps raising the quota for legal migrants from countries like Mexico).

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I envision free doses of morphine administered by scantily clad nurses that look like kate beckinsale, is that doable?

Now you're going in the direction of cloning? A whole different moral debate.

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@conquistador

 

I don't like so many people on Toytown replace logical debate with personal attacks. I honestly have no idea if you are a Republican, nor do I care. The side of this debate however that you arguing is a Republican talking point and most of the opponents of universal healthcare are Republicans as are most of the people who decry illegal immigrants for every problem they can think of.

Implying/calling (take your pick for whatever you did) that Republicans are Nazis shouldn't pass for logical debate anywhere.

 

As for talking points, where did yours come from? Let me rephrase that- your inaccurate talking points?

 

I take your comments here to imply that I am a Republican, which is your entire case for disagreeing with me and others who don't share your viewpoint. The issue on this thread isn't Republicans, it is the discussion of whether or not, and if so, to what extent those miilions in the US illegally should be covered under a universal health care program. For you, apparently everything is about the Republicans, who you have implied are Nazis.

 

 

As for why you feel you know more about my dealings with the Mexican authorities than I do, I have to say that feels a bit personal, petty, and offensive...but so goes Toytown.

I expressed doubt that your claims are correct. Feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary. Failure to do so on your part doesn't damage my belief, rather it undermines your own credibility, particularly in light of what the Mexican Foreign Ministry website says. As for personal, petty and offensive, I imagine that Republicans impugned by your implying that they are Nazis would find those and a few other adjectives apt in describing your own little goof there.

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I expressed doubt that your claims are correct. Feel free to provide any evidence to the contrary. Failure to do so on your part doesn't damage my belief, rather it undermines your own credibility, particularly in light of what the Mexican Foreign Ministry website says. As for personal, petty and offensive, I imagine that Republicans impugned by your implying that they are Nazis would find those and a few other adjectives apt in describing your own little goof there.

Tell ya what Amigo...you post a copy of your employment contracts, visa applications, airline tickets, anmeldung, and all documenting your exact timeline and process for immigrating to Germany and I'll gladly dig up the same for me and Mexico and post them for the world to see.

 

Otherwise you have no right to doubt me or anyone else when talking about their own personal experiences. You like to refer to some of us as hypocrites and demand that we provide "proof" yet you are not interested in any such thing.

 

Personally (and sure I'll be personal) if we were having this conversation in person and you tried that prove it BS about whether I can truthfully talk about my OWN experiences registering in Mexico and told me I need to provide you with some sort of proof, the only thing you'd end up with is my foot planted up your royally high-horsed ass!

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I don't suppose you lot are coming to the Mexican night next friday? It could provide some useful side entertainment. Can you please bring some pop rocks if you are.

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OK Conquistador let me clarify my position on this (and I'm guessing also Kat's): If there is one single person in the United States who is denied access to basic healthcare, then there is one too many. I personally don't care if they are a US-born citizen, a legal resident, an illegal immigrant, or a German on Vacation at Disney World. If you need healthcare, you should be able to get it without worrying whether you can pay for it.

 

There is NOTHING in healthcare that is so expensive that we can't afford it as a country. Once you take the political bribes out of the process, healthcare should and would be an affordable system. But instead we view it as an industry and as such focus on profitability.

 

I'm glad HCA and Blue Cross/Blue Shield are rolling in dough. I'm not glad the people mopping their floors live in fear of accident or illness because they are one paycheck from homelessness as it is and they know a visit to the hospital would bankrupt them for the next 10 years.

No one is a fan of the insurers, although they do offer policies to cover these things. There is, however, obviously room for improvement there.

 

If you are prepared to give everyone in the world "free" healthcare in the US, how much are you prepared for the US to pay for all that largesse? Who will pay, and who won't for all of this health care? How will you ensure that the supply of health care will be there for legal residents of the US?

 

How will you get those living illegally in the US (sure to increase in number without enforcemnt of existing law) to pay their fair share of the costs? Many, perhaps most, work for cash and aren't paying taxes now, how would you enforce payment of health premiums from them (whatever their share would be)?

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask tourists to have health care coverage when they come to the US- or do you want to encourage every chronically ill person in the world to come as a tourist to the US and get unlimited treatment?

 

 

And I pay US taxes all the time. I also pay German taxes. And, when I'm in Mexico I pay Mexican taxes.

Do you pay taxes to all three countries at the same time on the same income? I sure hope not. I seem to recall that you have been teaching English here, thus you shouldn't be making so much money that you do not qualify for the income tax exclusion on the US taxes. You're not currently resident in Mexico, so you're not paying Mexican taxes, which is anyhow irrelevant to my point, which is that if you're not paying US taxes, it is ridiculous for you to demand that those who do fund an unlimited largesse of comprehensive health care coverage care for anyone in the world (since anyone can come to the US illegally).

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Tell ya what Amigo...you post a copy of your employment contracts, visa applications, airline tickets, anmeldung, and all documenting your exact timeline and process for immigrating to Germany and I'll gladly dig up the same for me and Mexico and post them for the world to see.

 

Otherwise you have no right to doubt me or anyone else when talking about their own personal experiences. You like to refer to some of us as hypocrites and demand that we provide "proof" yet you are not interested in any such thing.

 

Personally (and sure I'll be personal) if we were having this conversation in person and you tried that prove it BS about whether I can truthfully talk about my OWN experiences registering in Mexico and told me I need to provide you with some sort of proof, the only thing you'd end up with is my foot planted up your royally high-horsed ass!

I have every right to doubt you on anything you say- if you can prove I don't have a right to doubt you, feel free to do so. Why I should show you or anyone else anything about my coming to Germany when it is far beyond the scope of this discussion is beyond me. Sounds to me like a desperate attempt on your part to try to escape from the labyrinthine maze you got yourself into by claiming to be a resident of Mexico.

 

Threatening violence- that also shows desperation. If carried out, that violence might also get you some unexpected results, including perhaps some time in jail and deportation. Anyone know whether German law recognizes self-defense against an attacker?

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I seem to recall that you have been teaching English here, thus you shouldn't be making so much money

Don't assume, it makes an ass out of you and me. I know some English teachers who earn very very good salaries

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OK, Timmeh, let's ask the guy what he makes. He might demand to see our paychecks and a few other things as well.

 

How about it Lexicon, do you make over 85,000 USD annually teaching English?

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Kat, I still don't see anything about being underinsured in the CDC document, plus not having health insurance for any part of a year is a very broad definition. You and Lexicon remain debunked.

 

Also, it is false to say that people are being denied access to basic healthcare, which implies that they are explicitly being turned away. I think if you don't have health insurance and offered to pay cash, you would get treatment even in a non-emergency situation, which everyone by law must receive. Can we do better as a society? Yes, but as was pointed out earlier in this thread by Carm, that is going to require a multifaceted approach to deal with things such as the high cost of malpractice insurance.

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OK, Timmeh, let's ask the guy what he makes. He might demand to see our paychecks and a few other things as well.

 

How about it Lexicon, do you make over 85,000 USD annually teaching English?

so he might ask to see your paycheck?

whereas you definitely do.

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OK, Timmeh, let's ask the guy what he makes. He might demand to see our paychecks and a few other things as well.

 

How about it Lexicon, do you make over 85,000 USD annually teaching English?

I fail to see how this is any of your business. Maybe you should show us yours first?

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Timmeh, neither is it any of yours, yet that didn't prevent you from sticking your nose into it. I asked because Lexicon said that he pays US taxes all the time despite being an English teacher. They aren't known for making taxable incomes of over 60,000 euros. There is an income tax exclusion of 85,000 USD for 2007, and I think it was 82500 USD for 2006, meaning that he wouldn't be paying US taxes if he working outside of the US teaching English and making less money than that.

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