Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

 

I dunno, in NZ, all emergency healthcare is free, for anyone...rich/poor/traveler/illegal immigrant. If you are a low/no income earning NZ resident, you qualify for a card which means that your health care is covered or heavily subsidised by the state. Seems to work ok.

Are you sure that everything is really free? People check into emergency rooms for anything from having the flu to having cut off a limb with a chainsaw, if you catch my drift...

 

I have been out of the healthcare loop here in Europe where coverage is supposedly "universal" and it ain't fun.

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I find it rather interesting that no one seems to complain about Germany requiring foreigners who want to live here to purchase health insurance (if they don't already have access to the public system via their employment or a spouse/parent's employment) a policy which seems reasonable to me.

We are talking about the illegal imigrants that are already in the country Conquistador, not the ones that are trying to get in. And the German System, like all the other ones, has its pros and cons. But I do agree that if the U.S. is going to get serious about illegal imigration, they should adopt a system like the Deutsch one.

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It is working out great, me being an illegal imigrant an all. Who does not have a college degree, but do hold a job at my local pizzeria, washing the dishes.

Is this supposed to mean something?

 

 

Your eyes are only open to your views, and you read what you want see, not what it is in front of you.

You are the one that refuses to argue what I actually say and just write cryptic one line responses and call people names. I'm actually quite open, after being in speech and debate for 8 years in high school and university I have argued both sides of these issues so much I dont even remember what side I beleive, which gets confusing because sometimes I switch in the middle of internet debates...

 

 

And I do not agree with having open borders, that was not even part of the threat.

What threat? I mean we agree on the fact that hospitals shouldnt turn people away so Im not sure what we are arguing about.

 

 

But me being human, and believing in something greater than this life

Okay, I dont..

 

 

I know that it is the right thing to do, that is, to extend health care to those in need. Why do we help people in 3rd world countries? They don't pay the U.S. any taxes, yet we send medical , Food and Aid relief. Because it is the right thing to do. Help your neighbor when he is in need. A view that many people here do not share.

I would rather individuals and private orgs do this shit (i do agree health care for citizens), the government taking my money and grossly redirecting it to charities I dont choose is not the most efficient way of doing shit.

 

 

And for the record, illegal imigrants are not stealing from you, they are carrying a big chunck of your economy on their shoulders.

Never said they did, I agree their exploitation helps us buy cheap shit, i said it earlier. I just said they are breaking the law.

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Yes, thats usually how I win a debate, dismiss the other side with self righteous indignation. Keep on fighting the good fight. (apprently the definition of prejudice has changed to "not sharing my views").

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Will the US Census Bureau do for you as a source? http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf

It's all there in black and white. But you don't really want to know, do you, or you would have done your own research. I see this over and over again. People ignore facts that don't fit their prejudices. Of course, that is the definition of prejudice, isn't it.

prej·u·dice

–noun

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

Wow, so asking for proof is a matter of prejudice? That's interesting- I guess you blithely accept anything anyone tells you, no matter what it is, huh? I'll take a look at it when I have the chance.

 

At any rate, you can't honestly say that you know what I know or do or don't want to know, can you? Nope, you sure can't. Go lecture someone else on what prejudice is.

 

EDIT: I already see a quote on page 21 of the Census Bureau document (which is on poverty, BTW) in which it says "Research shows that health insurance coverage is underreported in the CPS ASEC for a variety of reasons" The ASEC is the Annual Social and Economic Supplement to the Current Population Survey (CPS).

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Are you sure that everything is really free? People check into emergency rooms for anything from having the flu to having cut off a limb with a chainsaw, if you catch my drift...

Anything deemed to be an accident under the ACC (accident compensation scheme), which is very very broad (I have never been refused, it's amazing what is deemed as an accident by NZ doctors) , is treated for free. If you go in and try and get treated for the flu you'd pay for it and I'm sure it wouldn't take many visits to the emergency rooms paying in full to figure out what is an emergency and what's not.

 

I have been out of the healthcare loop here in Europe where coverage is supposedly "universal" and it ain't fun.

Me too it's very dangerous and no fun at all. That can't happen under the system in NZ

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This whole illegal immigrant question is just the sort of specious argument the Republicans repeatedly put out in order to deny everyone whatever they want to deny. It really pisses me off. You don't deny millions of Americans health care just because some may get a free ride just as you wouldn't close a shop just because there will always be a few shoplifters. It's a bullshit misdirect.

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This whole illegal immigrant question is just the sort of specious argument the Republicans repeatedly put out in order to deny everyone whatever they want to deny. It really pisses me off. You don't deny millions of Americans health care just because some may get a free ride just as you don't close a shop just because there will always be a few shoplifters. It's a bullshit misdirect.

I agree the repubs and dems use this as a political tool and its bullshit (As are both parties), it doesn't make it a non-issue however.

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Wow, so asking for proof is a matter of prejudice?

No, making up your mind before looking for any proof is a matter of prejudice. Face it. You are guilty as charged.

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I'm American, and I voted for the first option. It's simply immoral to stand there and let anyone die. I don't care where they came from or what they paid for. And anyway, illegals wouldn't come in the first place if somebody there didn't want to hire them. Therefore, they are actually wanted.

 

This is a loaded question/topic because the US doesn't have Universal Healthcare.

 

In a modern civilized country, especially one with the endless resources of the US, everyone should be covered universally for healthcare. The unfortunate part is not 12 million illegal immigrants that don't have health insurance, it's the 48 million citizens who have no health insurance. Add to this the masses of under-insured and you have the richest country in the world with half its population NOT having access to basic healthcare.

It's a joke and we need to quit worrying about a few Mexicans and start caring for everyone regardless of where they come from, what color they are, or whether we're democrats or nazis...I mean republicans.

 

Care to back up the claim that half of the US population does not have access to basic health care with some reliable sources? Or that the 48 million uninsured (some, incidentally young adults who are uninsured of their own volition) are actually US citizens?

 

Will the US Census Bureau do for you as a source? http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf

It's all there in black and white. But you don't really want to know, do you, or you would have done your own research. I see this over and over again. People ignore facts that don't fit their prejudices. Of course, that is the definition of prejudice, isn't it.

prej·u·dice

–noun

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

Kat, I took at look at the document you provided. Problem is, there is no mention in the document about people being "underinsured", although they do mention that health insurance coverage is underreported. I still see nothing at this point to back up that claim by Lexicon.

As for the second claim I challenged, Lexicon stated that 48 million US citizens are without health insurance. From the Census Bureau source you provided, 47 million people (both citizens and non-citizens) were without health insurance in 2006. I am not making an issue of whether it is 47 or 48 million, rather the characterization that all are citizens. The Census Bureau document states (with a confidence interval of 90%) that 10,234,000 of the uninsured in 2006 were noncitizens. 36,764,000 citizens were without health insurance. This figure can be found on page 29 (using the PDF page numbering). The document makes no attempt to figure out how many of the uninsured noncitizens are illegal; however since the document states 45% of all noncitizens are uninsured, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that a higher percentage of those in the US illegally are uninsured. If those in the US illegally were to comply with US immigration law and leave the US, the number of uninsured would shrink by a least a few million. That doesn't mean that the problems with a lack of insurance for some people are to be blamed on illegal immigration; however, it does point out that illegal immigration exacerbates a problem that needs to get solved, thus making solutions to that problem more difficult, ergo, more costly.

 

Since I have debunked Lexicon's claim with the source you have provided, I think you owe me an apology Kat. Failure to do so will be interpreted as a matter of prejudice against the truth on your part.

 

EDIT: I strongly discourage anyone who gets the notion to call someone who disagrees with them on this thread a Nazi or some other inappropriate epithet from actually doing so. Please keep such rubbish to yourself, and let's stick to the facts.

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AB, lilplatinum, and others, does anyone know what Mexico's immigration laws are, how they are enforced, the right (or lack thereof) of foreigners to conduct political activity in Mexico, and what access foreigners in Mexico get to health care in an emergency if they don't have health insurance? Better yet, anyone know why Mexico has the policies they do in these areas (whatever those policies may be)?

I'm a US citizen and a legal resident of Mexico. Their immigration laws are fairly straightforward and neutral regarding country of origin. When I entered Mexico I simply had to pay a $29 fee for my entry visa, authorized my credit card for $300 as a deposit on my car (as security for an agreement not to sell it under the table while in Mexico). Then once I was settled in my new city I went to the regional immigration office and paid $130 for my residence permit and work visa. This was unlimited and with no strange strings attached.

 

I personally didn't find their system unfair or awkward.

 

Compare this to Germany and you have a completely different system. The immigration authorities are anything but friendly and helpful. Citizens of different countries have to deal with completely different regulations. And as was mentioned above, if you are non-EU they make it almost impossible for you to find legal employment at a living wage.

 

I'm in the job hunt process as we speak, and it really irritates me that less qualified (or even completely unqualified) EU-residents have a much better shot at the jobs I am applying for just because they are UK or Irish citizens. Non-EU guys also have to pay all the social insurances and such, but then don't have the same rights to claim them back if we ever need them.

 

The UK makes working and living there as a foreigner even more cumbersome. This is a problem worldwide, and it's definitely a two way street.

 

Oh and just one comment -- there are tons of people in Mexico with College degrees. One thing that does bother me is that so many Americans like to generalize about Mexico and Mexicans yet almost none of them have actually been there. Those who have usually never leave the 20km boarder zone. Mexico and the US are the same place. Just like the US and Canada. As you go further south the food gets better, the music gets happier, and the people get darker. Otherwise it's the same exact thing.

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The UK makes working and living there as a foreigner even more cumbersome.

I found living, working and making use of the NHS in the UK a breeze compared to Germany.

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Lexicon, how does Mexico deal with those who are in its country illegally or attempt to enter illegally? What would happen if those who were in Mexico illegally held a march to demand an amnesty? Are those who are in Mexico illegally entitled to emergency room medical treatment and free education (if they are school-age children)?

 

If you are a resident of Mexico, and it seems that you like living there, why are you looking for a job in Europe?

 

EDIT: here is the Mexican Foreign Ministry's take on working in Mexico:

 

 

http://www.sre.gob.mx/english/services/visasforeigners.htm

How can I get permission to work in Mexico?

 

You must get permission from the INM to reside in Mexico and authorization to do paid work. You must demonstrate that you have a job offer from a Mexican business or institute.

 

Consult the requirements or go to any INM delegation in Mexico for more details about what is required.

 

I am a citizen of another country but I live in Mexico.

 

I want to stay in Mexico longer. What do I have to do?

 

You need to go to the INM and request an extension or renewal of your immigration document. To do this, you have to demonstrate that the original reasons for which you were granted the visa still exist.

Here's a publication from Mexico's immigration ministry on their southern border and issues related to it:

http://www.inm.gob.mx/paginas/foros/tercer...ex_(Ingles).pdf

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@conquistador

 

Numbers are numbers. And one thing I have realised over the years is that when it comes to arguing their points of view the Republican camp can find numbers or research to support anything they are claiming.

 

After all, they have already disproven global warming, shown that homosexuality is merely a choice by deviants, found WMD's in Iraq, proven the existence of Jesus, disproven the existence of poor people with jobs, shown that without a doubt the best way to improve the economy is to shift the tax burden from rich people to poor people, and so on and so on...

 

Anyone can distort numbers, or purport their preferred outcome from data, both sides do it, but certainly the Republicans have developed an uncanny knack which when combined with a massive propaganda network and the voluntary ignorant bliss of their supporters it becomes a dangerous recipe for problems.

 

Besides this, I don't care what political persuasion you are. All anyone has to do is go into a Wal-Mart and see the poor condition of the people who work there. Many of them supposedly have healthcare, but it doesn't cover everything they need. And you can see it in their faces, in their skin, in their overall looks. The poorer you are in the US the less likely you are to have a healthy life. And unfortunately in the country where the streets are supposedly paved with gold the majority of the people fall into the poor category.

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Lexicon, how does Mexico deal with those who are in its country illegally or attempt to enter illegally? What would happen if those who were in Mexico illegally held a march to demand an amnesty? Are those who are in Mexico illegally entitled to emergency room medical treatment and free education (if they are school-age children)?

 

If you are a resident of Mexico, and it seems that you like living there, why are you looking for a job in Europe?

There is no need for something like this as the Mexicans make it very easy to enter the country and remain there legally.

 

Also, I am a legal resident of Mexico -- meaning I can and sometimes do work there. I live and work in Germany. And, before any prejudiced ideas enter anyone's head -- no I'm not Mexican, I'm a white guy from Louisiana.

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Lexicon, until you can back up ANYTHING you say, perhaps you should be busy finding sources to support statements that you represent as facts. It will be very easy to further debunk what you say, but are you saying that Mexico lets anyone in, and doesn't deport those who cross its borders illegally (this mostly applies to their southern border)?

 

Lexicon and Kat, what you have done on this thread is really pathetic. I have no respect for either one of you.

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Oh and just one comment -- there are tons of people in Mexico with College degrees. One thing that does bother me is that so many Americans like to generalize about Mexico and Mexicans yet almost none of them have actually been there. Those who have usually never leave the 20km boarder zone. Mexico and the US are the same place. Just like the US and Canada. As you go further south the food gets better, the music gets happier, and the people get darker. Otherwise it's the same exact thing.

I never claimed Mexicans don't have college degrees, I said that to get a work permit from a non eu country here you pretty much need a degree (as far as I heard) and Aschaffenburgboy decided I said something different, as he is prone to do.

 

I will question your statement about how the US and Mexico are the same. Parts of Mexico certainly are, but if they were the same they wouldnt have millions of people risk their lives to sneak into America. The US has a shitload of problems, stemming from things such as the two parties (which, ironically are not that different despite their rhetoric), a retard president, and christians controlling the country. Mexico has a whole host of other problems including mass corruption (that puts Louisiana to shame) and rebels.

 

Also as for their immigration policy, they are kinda hypocrits:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/world/am...0and%20Refugees

 

I liked the following: "If the major characters in the migration drama unfolding in Chiapas could be captured in a collage, it would include a burly, white-haired farmer named Eusebio Ortega Contreras, who did not hide that most of the workers who picked mangos in his fields for $6 a day were underage, undocumented Guatemalans. "

 

And of course the Mexican government denounces our minutemen (who I do not support), but don't seem to have a problem with: "Migrants are also routinely detained by machete-wielding farmers, who extort their money by threatening to turn them over to the police. So many female migrants have been raped or coerced into sex, the authorities said, that some begin taking birth control pills a few months before embarking on the journey north."

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Two interesting tidbits from that article:

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/world/am...0and%20Refugees

But Deputy Foreign Minister Gerónimo Gutiérrez recently acknowledged that Mexico's immigration laws were "tougher than those being contemplated by the United States," where the authorities caught 1.5 million people illegally crossing the Mexican border last year.

 

In an interview, Mr. Gutiérrez said Mexico needed to "review its laws in order to have more legitimacy when we present our points of view to the United States."

I don't believe that Lexicon just showed up and automatically got an unlimited residence permit for Mexico. Maybe he had a job offer there prior to entry, but I have a hard time believing that as well.

 

Incidentally, Lexicon, were you saying above (in post 55 for example) that I am a Republican?

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Since I have debunked Lexicon's claim with the source you have provided, I think you owe me an apology Kat. Failure to do so will be interpreted as a matter of prejudice against the truth on your part.

 

EDIT: I strongly discourage anyone who gets the notion to call someone who disagrees with them on this thread a Nazi or some other inappropriate epithet from actually doing so. Please keep such rubbish to yourself, and let's stick to the facts.

1. Lexicon's claim was off by 1 million in 2006 from the Census Bureau - Ask the Centers for Disease Control and the number is worse: 54,5 million uninsured for at least part of the year prior to the interview http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrel...insur200706.pdf. Additionally, most of those who are insured, will find that they are actually underinsured should they have a catastrophic illness. You haven't debunked anything.

 

FACT: Millions of legal Americans have no health insurance.

FACT: Millions more are underinsured.

FACT: All first world countries in the world, except for the States, have some form of universal health care.

FACT: The existence of illegal aliens in the US or anywhere else doesn't change the three facts above.

 

Illegal aliens are no argument against universal health care, especially since most plans likely to be adopted would not even cover them. You've proven nothing.

 

I'll ignore the request for an apology. I do not apologize for being right.

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