Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

I can't imagine that an American has selected the first option. This has to be foreign input since the problem wouldn't directly affect you. Why should any illegal get any insurance? So I could have just come to Germany illegally and let you all pay for me? How nice of you. Can you just put some money into my bank account since you have so much you're willing to throw away?

 

Sorry, if you're illegal (which you obviously chose to be) you shouldn't get a DIME. Doesn't matter; not like the US will ever get Universal health care as long as Bush and company keep throwing money into their oil investment war.

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I'm American, and I voted for the first option. It's simply immoral to stand there and let anyone die. I don't care where they came from or what they paid for. And anyway, illegals wouldn't come in the first place if somebody there didn't want to hire them. Therefore, they are actually wanted.

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On the upside, they work cheaply and quickly and its good to rent a truckload back home when you need to move or do some other work (although they are more expensive than minimum wage, not sure where people find these mexicans you can pay $3/hr)

 

On the downside my car has been hit by 4 uninsured illegals in the 5 years I drove in Houston.

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I'm American, and I voted for the first option. It's simply immoral to stand there and let anyone die so long as they've got a perfectly healthy set of internal organs and tehre is a buck to be made.

there , fixed it for you , also more moral , win win.

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This is a loaded question/topic because the US doesn't have Universal Healthcare.

 

In a modern civilized country, especially one with the endless resources of the US, everyone should be covered universally for healthcare. The unfortunate part is not 12 million illegal immigrants that don't have health insurance, it's the 48 million citizens who have no health insurance. Add to this the masses of under-insured and you have the richest country in the world with half its population NOT having access to basic healthcare.

 

It's a joke and we need to quit worrying about a few Mexicans and start caring for everyone regardless of where they come from, what color they are, or whether we're democrats or nazis...I mean republicans.

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The answers to be picked are most definitely from someone with an illegal immigrant hang up. They obviously watch to much Fox!

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Eurovol, you are incorrect in saying that I watch Fox- I don't watch any English-language TV, for that matter. You are welcome to state what other answer options you feel would be appropriate or to start your own thread.

 

As for any "hangups" about people being in the US illegally, I am opposed to anyone being in the US illegally, because it's, well, illegal. It's about the rule of law, and illegal entry being tolerated on a mass scale means that the country no longer decides who enters or doesn't enter its borders. If violating US law by entering and residing illegally is winked at, what will be winked at next? You do agree that the laws of the US should not be violated, don't you? Or do you endorse breaking laws?

 

I doubt that you will give any sort of substantive answer to that, thus leaving me with the impression that you support lawbreaking when an non-Republican does it.

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This is a loaded question/topic because the US doesn't have Universal Healthcare.

 

In a modern civilized country, especially one with the endless resources of the US, everyone should be covered universally for healthcare. The unfortunate part is not 12 million illegal immigrants that don't have health insurance, it's the 48 million citizens who have no health insurance. Add to this the masses of under-insured and you have the richest country in the world with half its population NOT having access to basic healthcare.

 

It's a joke and we need to quit worrying about a few Mexicans and start caring for everyone regardless of where they come from, what color they are, or whether we're democrats or nazis...I mean republicans.

I am curious to hear which news channel eurovol thinks you watch, since you appear to think that Republicans are Nazis. Would that be state-controlled TV in Russia or North Korea, perhaps?

 

Care to back up the claim that half of the US population does not have access to basic health care with some reliable sources? Or that the 48 million uninsured (some, incidentally young adults who are uninsured of their own volition) are actually US citizens?

 

As for the question allegedly being loaded, it is in fact a hypothetical question , one which people should be discussing within the context of the debate about a potential program of universal health care. If we assume for a moment that your statements are accurate, there would necessarily be a huge expense to bring over 150 million people up to snuff on health insurance coverage- why should people who by law should not even be in the US get comprehensive health coverage at taxpayer expense?

 

As for caring for everyone regardless of where they come from, perhaps you should know that no one really knows for sure how many people are in the US illegally (the 12 million estimate is on the low end of estimates) and if the US does start offering comprehensive health care for anyone along with the current weak enforcement of immigration law, we have no idea what the results may be- will we get the world's chronically ill showing up for the free comprehensive health care you advocate giving anyone with the US' allegedly unlimited resources? Rather rich of someone residing outside the US, and thus probably not paying any US taxes, to write such a blank check for taxpayers actually living in the US. Also portends rather poorly for the future payment streams of entitlements such as Social Security and Medicare which are widely known to face future decimation without significant tax increases and/or significant benefit cuts.

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At the root of all debates between Americans and "Europeans" (i know...generalizations here...) is really a difference in fundamental societal philosophy.

 

A lot of it boils down to Rousseau Vs. Locke.

 

I think Europe (as a broad generalization) adheres to the Philosophy of Rousseau, and the US Locke.

 

Rousseau brought us many ideas on the theory of "Social Contract"...The individual submits themselves "to all", therefore submitting himself to "no one". I'll give up freedoms, as will my fellow man for the advancement toward a more utopian society...this means larger governments, more social services.

 

Locke pointed more toward the individual rights of man...life, liberty, property...3 things that are very near and dear to the hearts of Americans (as a whole). The sole purpose of government is to protect the life liberty and property of its citizens.

 

I think those very generalized societal philosophies manifest themselves in many of these topics that we debate today...even if they don't necessarily pertain to the ideas themselves...but modern societal issues.

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It is so easy for those of you who say "they should not get a dime", because you have never walked in the shoes that these imigrants, LEGAL or not, have walked in, searching for a better life. And please do not give me that crap about having your car hit by 4 illegals. If you want to get down to the point, have the U.S. give back all the land that belongs to them, and then have a massive police action to kick all of them out of the country. THAT WOULD BE FAIR, wouldn't it? But be prepare to lose many states. The American Dream, built on the blood sweat and tears of people that can not share it. If I did not had family in the U.S. I would never go visit, just so I would not have to put up with poeople that think in this donkeybackwards way.

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1) Several billion people on the planet have shittier lives than the Mexicans, why do they get this special pass to come just due to proximity, shouldn't it be equal oppertunity?

 

2) If I break into your house and steal your shit because I am poor and hungry, its okay, right? Im in search of a better life?

 

3) Why shouldn't I give you the crap about my car hit by 4 illegals without insurance, its one of the common problems in a border state.

 

4) Give back what land that belongs to them? No land belongs to them in the United States. It was conqured and annexed via treaties. What next, do you want to give Italy back to the Etruscans? Sorry, every nation on the planet is built on the bones of others.

 

Bottom line is I don't really care that much and as a psuedo-libertarian I just say slash the social programs that benefit everyone, open the borders and if they want to come get exploited so we can have cheap vegetables, who cares. But as a nation there is no fundamental right to provide anything to non citizens, nations exist as a collection of citizens banded together for their intrests (ideally) and until their domestic problems are solved their non treaty obligations end at the border. It is the individuals and private charities jobs to play charitiy.

 

I also assume that those of you advocating open door policy for the US think that germany is also immoral for making it so damn difficult to get a work permit. I mean you have to have a college degree to get in here, how would the Mexicans fare if their neighbor had that policy?

 

As for health care, they should get the minimum necessary to stabalize them and then sent home. I do agree hospitals should not let people die for lack of money, its one of the few social programs i support.

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1) Several billion people on the planet have shittier lives than the Mexicans, why do they get this special pass to come just due to proximity, shouldn't it be equal oppertunity?

 

2) If I break into your house and steal your shit because I am poor and hungry, its okay, right? Im in search of a better life?

 

3) Why shouldn't I give you the crap about my car hit by 4 illegals without insurance, its one of the common problems in a border state.

 

4) Give back what land that belongs to them? No land belongs to them in the United States. It was conqured and annexed via treaties. What next, do you want to give Italy back to the Etruscans? Sorry, every nation on the planet is built on the bones of others.

 

5)I also assume that those of you advocating open door policy for the US think that germany is also immoral for making it so damn difficult to get a work permit. I mean you have to have a college degree to get in here, how would the Mexicans fare if their neighbor had that policy?

 

6)As for health care, they should get the minimum necessary to stabalize them and then sent home. I do agree hospitals should not let people die for lack of money, its one of the few social programs i support.

1-Why should anyone help you when you are in need, when they could help someone else? S

2-Last time I check more crime is being committed from citizens, that non-citizens -T

3-Just like you said in number 1) people on the planet have shittier lives...-U

4-Of course that is nonsense, just like denying helath care to a human-P

5)A college degree to get here? it is unbelievable how narrow minded this point is. TTners Does everyone here has a college degree? I DO NOT THINK SO!-I

6)Here we agree, so I will not give you the -D

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1-Why should anyone help you when you are in need, when they could help someone else? S

I am talking about the preference Mexicans citizens get. They are pretty much advocated amnsty by a large portion of the country, but by doing this it takes up spot that people from far shittier parts of the world are denied.. You argue that we don't deserve this land to ourselves by v irtue of being born here but by virtue of being born next to here you deserve a piece of the pie while everyone gets screwed?

 

 

2-Last time I check more crime is being commited from citizens, that non-citizens -T

You completely missed my point. YOu justify breaking the law because you are poor and hungry, I am asking what other laws does your mentality apply to. Besides, the fact that one crime is being committed does not provide amnesty for lesser crimes.

 

 

3-Just like you said in number 1) people on the planet have shittier lives...-U

So because people on the lives have shittier lives I have to ignore personal and social and economic ramifications of unregulated immigration?

 

 

4-Of course that is nonsense, just like denying helath care to a human-P

So you agree your original argument was nonsense, good.

 

 

5)A college degree to get here? it is unbelievable how narrow minded this point is. TTners Does everyone here has a college degree? I DO NOT THINK SO!-I

For non eu citizens I was led to beleive this was a requirement, but that was an example. My point is the US gets shit for not allowing completely open borders, I assume you save that invective for european countries not throwing open their doors as well?

 

Also, it was quote how you spelt stupid downwards after your one line answers with no analysis that barely if at all addressed the actual points I was making. Your a clever guy. Hows that working out for you?

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AB, lilplatinum, and others, does anyone know what Mexico's immigration laws are, how they are enforced, the right (or lack thereof) of foreigners to conduct political activity in Mexico, and what access foreigners in Mexico get to health care in an emergency if they don't have health insurance? Better yet, anyone know why Mexico has the policies they do in these areas (whatever those policies may be)?

 

I find it rather interesting that no one seems to complain about Germany requiring foreigners who want to live here to purchase health insurance (if they don't already have access to the public system via their employment or a spouse/parent's employment) a policy which seems reasonable to me.

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Im not sure the specifics of Mexican immigration law as my experience exists only in going to border towns to drink before we were 21 and a trip down for spring break..

 

However I am aware that on their southern border they tend to shoot those coming in. And the police and government is so goddamn corrupt I assume that your rights as a visitor are directly proportional to how many palms you can grease.

 

From what I understand their health care system isn't as bad as you would imagine, but horridly crowded, I'm not sure what a visitor would receive as I have been fortunate enough to never need to go. However I think that, as in America, they arent going to turn you away if you are gravely injured.

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Also, it was quote how you spelt stupid downwards after your one line answers with no analysis that barely if at all addressed the actual points I was making. Your a clever guy. Hows that working out for you?

It is working out great, me being an illegal imigrant an all. Who does not have a college degree, but do hold a job at my local pizzeria, washing the dishes.

 

Your eyes are only open to your views, and you read what you want see, not what it is in front of you.

And I do not agree with having open borders, that was not even part of the threat. But me being human, and believing in something greater than this life, I know that it is the right thing to do, that is, to extend health care to those in need. Why do we help people in 3rd world countries? They don't pay the U.S. any taxes, yet we send medical , Food and Aid relief. Because it is the right thing to do. Help your neighbor when he is in need. A view that many people here do not share. And for the record, illegal imigrants are not stealing from you, they are carrying a big chunck of your economy on their shoulders.

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But as is often the case, the poor can not cover it themselves, so it must wait until it is an emergency... which costs society more.

I dunno, in NZ, all emergency healthcare is free, for anyone...rich/poor/traveler/illegal immigrant. If you are a low/no income earning NZ resident, you qualify for a card which means that your health care is covered or heavily subsidised by the state. Seems to work ok.

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Care to back up the claim that half of the US population does not have access to basic health care with some reliable sources? Or that the 48 million uninsured (some, incidentally young adults who are uninsured of their own volition) are actually US citizens?

Will the US Census Bureau do for you as a source? http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf

It's all there in black and white. But you don't really want to know, do you, or you would have done your own research. I see this over and over again. People ignore facts that don't fit their prejudices. Of course, that is the definition of prejudice, isn't it.

prej·u·dice

–noun

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

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