Universal health care in the U.S.

Universal health care for those in the US illegally   70 votes

  1. 1. Should those who are in the US illegally be covered under a universal health care program?

    • Yes, comprehensive coverage should be paid for those in the US illegally at taxpayer expense
      18
    • Yes, but only for visits to an emergency room or free clinic
      26
    • No, those in the US illegally should be required to purchase private health insurance out of their own pocket
      26

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344 posts in this topic

Hmm in Pleb's magical candyland where we have infinite resources I can either take some job that requires the least amount of effort and then do what I want or I can bust my ass to do something that advances society and have exactly as much as the guy who is a professional pornagrapher or something... Yeah, that society would advance fast. I mean I suppose if that was reality I would have stayed in university my entire life and studied my esoteric disciplines which contribute nothing to society while drinking 6 nights a week while surrounded by hot austin co-eds... Man I wish this system worked, I wouldnt have had to come to cold wet Hamburg for a job!

 

Thats why I always hated the star trek universe, they had no money and expect me to beleive that most people are going to exert lots of purely altruistic effort if they don't have to?

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Ok as i am not a economist i will try to ask a simple question to show why I feel that this idea of shared resorces does not work. On paper i also think that communism sounds like a utopia and I woul dagree that the biggest problem it had was the corruption. which basicly comes down to it that people cannot help themselves. How do you control productivity. if every person gets the same "money compensation ratio" for there work. So i go to work with Bob we carry rocks in a normal day I carry 100 rocks he carries 10 but we get the same "reward" So i start to think i dont need to work this hard i will only carry 10 for now on. this is how communisim destroys productivity. Ofcouse i am sure this is a simple argument still i would like to see the other side spelled out so simply.

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Only in during a period of required service in menial jobs would you be performing tasks that had no interest for you.

After this period If you are not interested in Rocks then you are not carrying rocks. Therefore productivity amongst those who are past their required service period would be at a peak due to a natural interest in their area.

 

Like any system, there are checks and balances, the same applies now. Of course if you do not perform your duties during the required service then perhaps you do not get to roll around in the extra comforts life offers. The advantage here being that I would still have all that I require to survive (Food, Shelter, clothing etc) therefore completely solving the idea that half of the world's population must live without generally acceptable levels of these needs.

 

Would it not provide motivation to know that if I perform my tasks to satisfaction that I would have access to all those things that make life so much more pleasurable.

 

@lilplatinum - I belive that we have enough resources on this planet to cloth, house and feed every single person many times over. It comes down to wastage and correct use of resources. At present that capitalistic system is in many ways overproducing and wasting, but the free market thinkers would like us to believe the fallacy that the market corrects itself. It may correct itself, but in no way is the correction response timely and or in proportion. These so called corrections generally only affect the lower to middle income sections of the populations.

 

@Straker - If you perform your rock carrying task to satisfaction then you can travel the world, scuba dive, surf, sunbath, ski, snowboard, play cards, surf the net, play computer games, watch movies, catch a concert... everything that is available at present...

 

Yes it does require a change in mindset... some may take some time to understand that the planet is too small to be thinking only on an individual level.

 

Imagine for a moment that we were capable of working together as a planet. Not only for our own benefit, but at this point quite possibly our own survival.

 

I believe the we as a species are capable of so much more and the current system only serves to limit our potential.

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Pleb, do you think even the rest of the far left contingent on TT agrees with you on these pie-in-the-sky proposals? BTW, who is going to do all the micromanaging and enforcement you envision? How will the enforcers decide who is pulling their weight? You also shoudn't be so dismissive of the price mechanism.

 

EDIT: Pleb, you should start a new thread where you spell out your ideas and poll TTers on their opinions of the merits of your proposals.

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Pleb, do you think the rest of the far left contingent on TT agrees with you on these pie-in-the-sky proposals?

There is no such thing a right or left. These are distractions used to divide and conquer. There are however differing points of view, and that my sarcastic friend makes for interesting conversation.

 

You're welcome to stay in your right vs left paradigm, but I will not join you.

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BTW, who is going to do all the micromanaging and enforcement you envision? How will the enforcers decide who is pulling their weight? You also shoudn't be so dismissive of the price mechanism.

Who does the managing now?

 

Are they individuals like you and me... In some cases they are qualified for the job, in others not. Do you imagine that we should employ some Gnomes for the job or would people suffice?

 

The price mechanism - retains it's meaning purely through general consensus.

 

When massive corporations maintain market share by continually pushing alternate and smaller suppliers out and corrupting the decision making process, what is then left of the price mechanism when the population has no choice for needed products? The price mechanism only functions when there exists a large and accessible choice... a choice that is at present constantly being consolidated by the larger corporations under the guise of different brands and companies.

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The price mechanism - retains it's meaning purely through general consensus.

Its funny you use the words "general consensus". These Toytown forums are for people who have something in common - english speaking expats in Germany, and they can't form a general consensus on if the correct phrase is "at the playground" or "on the playground" (its on the playground btw). I don't know how you propose that billions of people, many of whom have diametrically opposed views of life and social justice, can come together and form this idealistic system. How do you propose this is done?

 

Pontificating on some magical system and then just saying that your detractors lack vision does not overcome the basic fact that there is no realistic way that your ideals will be implemented barring some fundamental shift in human nature, which has been pretty much based on self centeredness and tribalism since we began to record our history.

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LP- I fully expect Pleb to claim he can abolish the laws of science next!

 

So let's get this right- the same people will manage and will produce and design things, they will get paid less yet work just as hard and be just as productive- all for the benefit of those goofing off and doing what they feel like doing?

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Its funny you use the words "general consensus". These Toytown forums are for people who have something in common - english speaking expats in Germany, and they can't form a general consensus on if the correct phrase is "at the playground" or "on the playground" (its on the playground btw). I don't know how you propose that billions of people, many of whom have diametrically opposed views of life and social justice, can come together and form this idealistic system. How do you propose this is done?

 

Pontificating on some magical system and then just saying that your detractors lack vision does not overcome the basic fact that there is no realistic way that your ideals will be implemented barring some fundamental shift in human nature, which has been pretty much based on self centeredness and tribalism since we began to record our history.

How did the systems we have in place today come into their overall dominating position?

 

Obviously a complete audit of all available resources and requisites would be the first step.

 

Changes can be made gradually or very aggressively over a short period. Short period changes would require massive societal upheavals and that would result in resistance, unless it was a case of massive environmental or self inflicted upheaval.

 

Are you saying that we as a species are incapable of considering such a path? Are you saying that the benefits of such a system would not be seen be the greater proportion of the populace? Do you think that those who currently work between 35-50 hours per week for minimal gain would be against the idea of equitable distribution? Who would you envisage would to be idealogically opposed to such an idea? Is it those that benefit from the current system? Are those that benefit from the current system in the majority or the minority?

 

All smooth transitions are about education and preparation.

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LP- I fully expect Pleb to claim he can abolish the laws of science next!

 

So let's get this right- the same people will manage and will produce and design things, they will get paid less yet work just as hard and be just as productive- all for the benefit of those goofing off and doing what they feel like doing?

Where did getting paid ever come into it?

 

Where did the idea that they would receive less than at present come into it?

 

Where did the idea that people could goof off and not contribute whilst reaping all the benefits come into it. You sound like fucking Fox news.

 

Have you been reading?

 

I probably shouldn't have to explain to you that our current scientific laws are nothing more than assumptions that fit only a proportion of the observed and are always, ALWAYS being revised and questioned. Quantum physics is currently in the process of destroying most of what we think is fact.

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Oh, sorry, under the Plebian World Order, everyone will have more just because the Great Pleb decrees it! :lol:

 

Seems to me that in order to really know what Fox News says, you would have to watch it.

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How did the systems we have in place today come into their overall dominating position?

Self interest and tribalism.

 

 

Changes can be made gradually or very aggressively over a short period. Short period changes would require massive societal upheavals and that would result in resistance, unless it was a case of massive environmental or self inflicted upheaval.

Yes, my question is how do you expect to foment these changes in a non overly theoretical position? How do you convince those in western society to sacrifice their quality of life to improve those who have not?

 

 

Are you saying that we as a species are incapable of considering such a path?

IMO yes, at least within several centuries - until we shed such backwards ideas as religion and culture, which isn't likely to happen.

 

 

Are you saying that the benefits of such a system would not be seen be the greater proportion of the populace? Do you think that those who currently work between 35-50 hours per week for minimal gain would be against the idea of equitable distribution? Who would you envisage would to be idealogically opposed to such an idea? Is it those that benefit from the current system? Are those that benefit from the current system in the majority or the minority?

Its not a question of if your system would be for the greatest utilitarian good. Perhaps it would. The question is getting nutjob muslims, jews, christians, athiests, racists, sexists, feminists, homos, homophobes, neo-nazis, anti-nazis, potheads, prohibitionists, sepratists, extremists, conspiracy theorists, ufo theorists, etc. etc. to all agree on some new world order which would appropriate and distribute all resources on earth. Its not going to happen.

 

 

All smooth transitions are about education and preparation.

So what you are saying is that if people were educated they would agree with you? I mean I know the University of Texas isnt Harvard, but i'd like to think my degrees count for *something*...

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How do you convince those in western society to sacrifice their quality of life to improve those who have not?

That's the fatal assumption right there...

 

Why assume that the majority would have to sacrifice there quality of life?

 

The largest percentage of the population in Western Culture would surely experience an improvement? As previously stated the insanely wealthy would have their disproportionate lifestyles curtailed, but I think it's safe to say that the larger percentage of the population would not have a problem with that.

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So what you are saying is that if people were educated they would agree with you? I mean I know the University of Texas isnt Harvard, but i'd like to think my degrees count for *something*...

No I was referring to the fact that in any change or transition, the best way to ensure success is through education on what is required to achieve the change and then preparing in order to actually achieve a smooth and successful transition.

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That's the fatal assumption right there...

 

Why assume that the majority would have to sacrifice there quality of life?

 

The largest percentage of the population in Western Culture would surely experience an improvement? As previously stated the insanely wealthy would have their disproportionate lifestyles curtailed, but I think it's safe to say that the larger percentage of the population would not have a problem with that.

A lot of unproven assumptions there.

 

Minority rights and property rights be damned, eh Pleb? I believe Lenin's "Useful Idiot" phrase comes to mind. Of course, your claim to know what the majority wants is at odds with your insistence on individual representation in the Plebian Utopia. No one could ever be sure that anything they had could not be deemed "surplus" to their needs and thus subject to being taken away from them.

 

Care to list all of the things that every person will get under the Plebian Dictatorship?

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That's the fatal assumption right there...

 

Why assume that the majority would have to sacrifice there quality of life?

 

The largest percentage of the population in Western Culture would surely experience an improvement? As previously stated the insanely wealthy would have their disproportionate lifestyles curtailed, but I think it's safe to say that the larger percentage of the population would not have a problem with that.

Really, so I get to keep my 52' flat screen hdtv and gas guzzling mustang? That means everyone who wants a 52' flat screen gets one... Whats the policy on a second one for my bathroom? I wonder who is going to sign up to work at the flatscreen factory? I could understand being a doctor as some vague lifes goal to help people, but seriously, who the hell is going to want to work in the tv shop to get the 6 billion tvs to everyone on the planet when you could do something alot more meaningfull..

 

Thats the problem, you just assert that there are enough resources to support the rampant acquisition of shit that is considered a birthright in rich western countries, even by the non-uber-wealthy.. Unless you can prove to me there are enough resources for this shit to be given to all, you have to convince me how you are going to pry the xbox controllers out of peoples hands.. Keeping in minds that there are plenty of heavily armed rednecks in my home state who are convinced that invasion of their home with intent to appropriate their goods is just cause for a shotgun blast to the face, and I don't think they are too keen on your reeducation camps to help facilitate entry to the new world order.

 

 

No I was referring to the fact that in any change or transition, the best way to ensure success is through education on what is required to achieve the change and then preparing in order to actually achieve a smooth and successful transition.

Right, but you have yet to show how you are going to get 6 billion people (who can't agree on if there is a sky wizard, and if there is what his opinions on anal sex are) how to accept your theory, get along, and go with this education...

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but seriously, who the hell is going to want to work in the tv shop to get the 6 billion tvs to everyone on the planet when you could do something alot more meaningfull..

The more menial tasks would be part of a required period before moving onto the profession of choice...

You should read the earlier posts, you are questions that have already been answered.

 

 

Thats the problem, you just assert that there are enough resources to support the rampant acquisition of shit that is considered a birthright in rich western countries, even by the non-uber-wealthy.. Unless you can prove to me there are enough resources for this shit to be given to all, you have to convince me how you are going to pry the xbox controllers out of peoples hands..

Right, but you have yet to show how you are going to get 6 billion people (who can't agree on if there is a sky wizard, and if there is what his opinions on anal sex are) how to accept your theory, get along, and go with this education...

Yes you would probably need to adjust the idea that your gas guzzling inefficient form of transport would be replaced with an integrated private public system.

 

We run this planet on such massive inefficiencies at present that there is a lot of room for improvement. Of course there would be relative limitations...

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I believe Lenin's "Useful Idiot" phrase comes to mind.

Yes there have been tons of idiots throughout history with ideas that were ridiculed by there better knowing peers. Among those idiots are the individuals who have provided the planet with it's most beneficial leaps in technology, medicine and science.

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Yes you would probably need to adjust the idea that your gas guzzling inefficient form of transport would be replaced with an integrated private public system.

 

We run this planet on such massive inefficiencies at present that there is a lot of room for improvement. Of course there would be relative limitations...

Once again, you have made no claim how you are going to address humanities inability to come to a consensus. If you can't convince conquistador and myself, how do you think you are going to get enough people to form your new world order in on the ground floor?

 

Also, FYI you can take away my fast car and make me ride some gay public transportation when you pry it from my cold dead hands. I might take public transportation to get to work and for practical uses, but I'll keep my leisure vehicle - even if it is a substandard american built POS...

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