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Rote Armee Fraktion (RAF) terrorist paroled

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Positiv bewerteten die Juristen vor allem, dass Haule an der Selbstauflösung der RAF 1998 aktiv mitgewirkt und klargemacht habe, Gewalt nicht mehr als Mittel zur Erreichung politischer Ziele anzusehen.

Süddeutsche Zeitung online 17 August 2007

She was active in the dissolution of the RAF in 1998 and has convinced the court that she no longer sees violence as a means to attain political goals.

For what it's worth as the question was posed earlier on.

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One mans soldier is another mans terrorist. Never heard of a soldier being sentenced to life for his killings tho. Must have to do with by whose standards they are judged.

 

Oh wait, Lt. William Calley, commanding officer in My Lai, was sentenced to life. Served three days.

 

post-15313-1187384465_thumb.jpg

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Where's the argument?

 

A woman committed crime. She was convicted.

She served the sentence as judged appropriate.

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I would say the same regardless of whether some self-acknowledged left-wing anti-capitalist was defending a left-wing anti-capitalist terrorist's lenient sentence or not.

For the record:

I have made NO comment about my opinion of the sentencing.

 

I doubt whether my EXTREMELY critical opinions of this convict's activities would even reach your middle ear;

floundering in an intellectual puddle as you do.

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One mans soldier is another mans terrorist. Never heard of a soldier being sentenced to life for his killings tho. Must have to do with by whose standards they are judged.

That's rich, being lectured by you, who doesn't know what he is talking about. Did all of the Nazi war criminals get appropriate sentences? Milllions of their victims got the death penalty. Maybe I should post pictures of Auschwitz and the other German death camps.

 

Quite a few people who were active-duty military when they were sentenced have gotten life in prison (or the death penalty) or so long a sentence that it was effectively for life.

 

Are you claiming the Red Army Faction was something other than a terrorist group?

 

What about all those former Stasi agents collecting fat pensions who have never been tried for their crimes? Those who ran Soviet and Chinese Gulags? And so many more.

 

Another one of the anti-American crowd that thinks only America can do wrong.

 

EDIT: Monkstown, you have defended the SENTENCE as appropriate under German law. I have questioned whether it was appropriate under the law and also morally.

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I'd rather have the law as an arbiter for sentence and conviction than someone's feelings about what is lenient and what is appropriate.

 

Conquistador, you have insinuated that Monkstown cannot be objective in this case, while he was doing a pretty good job at being objective (i. e. steering clear of moral judgement).

You, on the other hand, mixed your gut feelings on the case with some anti-Teutonic utterances, considering the sentence in regard to these feelings and out of context of the legal system in question.

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Reading through the Spaniard's posts on this thread, I can only feel very sorry for anyone who, as a guest here in Europe, wastes his stay here bleating in defence of his home country and its actions abroad while he could be out savouring the culture that surrounds him and having a suitably civilised attitude towards his host. The Spaniard never leaves this forum - check the number of posts and the time span between posts (no, you don't have to go into Wikipedia) to see that he does nothing else with his life. This waste of time saddens me. But I have stupidly overlooked the fact that there is an integration problem at issue here and when that is solved he may turn out to be somewhat more human.

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I'd rather have the law as an arbiter for sentence and conviction than someone's feelings about what is lenient and what is appropriate.

 

Conquistador, you have insinuated that Monkstown cannot be objective in this case, while he was doing a pretty good job at being objective (i. e. steering clear of moral judgement).

You, on the other hand, mixed your gut feelings on the case with some anti-Teutonic utterances, considering the sentence in regard to these feelings and out of context of the legal system in question.

I would say that leniency has bee provided Heule if she did not serve the life sentence which she originally received, and she only served 15 years (for a murder committed in a separate instance from those of the US servicemembers). As part of the leniency for Heule, "someone's feelings about what was appropriate " were the arbiter for the reduction in her sentence.

 

Monkstown lost any facade of objectivity when he called me "right-wing". It also seems to me he passed moral judgement when he discussed rehabilitation, among other things. Why haven't you criticized him for calling me "right-wing"? After he classified me a "right-wing" I merely pointed out his own, personally stated leanings and that of the murderess in question. It was he who injected ideology into the discussion, whereas I criticized the sentences she got for her serial actions of murder and bombings, a criticism I would have made regardless of who the killer and victims were. In some circumstances, if a person calls me right-wing, that person MAY be trying to associate me with Nazis. As a descendant of victims of Nazism, I find that possibility or insinuation deeply offensive.

 

Heule apparently would have gotten the same sentence for killing dozens of people in a single incident as she would have for killing one person. She killed multiple people in multiple instances of murder and gave her victims the death penalty, yet now has been freed. Yes, I will express indignation at that. As I understand it, sentences of approximately 15 years for murder are common in Germany, and 20 for a life sentence is the norm. Yet, Heule committed murders in three separate incidents. That would seem to argue for three separate sentences.

 

You accuse me of being anti-Teutonic, yet do not know me. It is a charge that would not stick if you did know me. Criticism of the lack of prosecutions of former Stasi agents does not make one anti-Teutonic, as there are many Germans, both victims of Stasi, and non-victims who believe they should be tried. I notice that you failed to excoriate your countryman for comments which, according to your logic, are anti-American. Are you going to criticize your countrymen and countrywomen as "anti-American" when they criticize the US? I doubt it. By the standard you have set, it would be impossible to criticize Nazis of the past or Neonazis in Germany without being labeled "anti-Teutonic". And, finally, Teutonic is a term which refers to people other than German citizens, so who else are you claiming I am "anti" other than Germans?

 

EDIT. garibaldi's snide comments probably find the peanut gallery in good spirits, yet those who know me (including my numerous German friends) know better than you whether or not I am integrated. I believe they would concur that I am. As for getting out and seeing things, your GPS surveillance of me must not be working properly.

 

EDIT: BTW, it seems rather odd to say that someone who is, as it turns out, a citizen of an EU country, is a guest in Europe. Are you a guest in Germany?

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As for getting out and seeing things, your GPS surveillance of me must not be working properly. For once you're correct. The batteries were low.

Are you a guest in Germany? Yes

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Criticism of the lack of prosecutions of former Stasi agents does not make one anti-Teutonic, as there are many Germans, both victims of Stasi, and non-victims who believe they should be tried.

Just for the record: Stasi supportet the Rote Armee Fraktion, but did not create nor control it.

 

I notice that you failed to excoriate your countryman for comments which, according to your logic, are anti-American.

 

You took care of that.

 

 

By the standard you have set, it would be impossible to criticize Nazis of the past or Neonazis in Germany without being labeled "anti-Teutonic".

Nonsense. Criticize the Rote Armee Fraktion or any brand of Nazis to your heart's content.

 

But the very opening of the thread sounded like: *Conquistador proudly presents: Evil German on Exhibition*

 

"Somehow I doubt any American convicted of murder by a German court would get such lenient treatment."

Isn't that prejudiced?

 

 

And, finally, Teutonic is a term which refers to people other than German citizens, so who else are you claiming I am "anti" other than Germans?

.

Do you think of all the other countries in the Americas whenever you mention anti-Americanism (and you do that quite a lot)?

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I would say that leniency has bee provided Heule if she did not serve the life sentence which she originally received

 

Heule apparently would have gotten the same sentence for killing dozens of people in a single incident as she would have for killing one person. She killed multiple people in multiple instances of murder and gave her victims the death penalty, yet now has been freed. Yes, I will express indignation at that. As I understand it, sentences of approximately 15 years for murder are common in Germany, and 20 for a life sentence is the norm. Yet, Heule committed murders in three separate incidents. That would seem to argue for three separate sentences.

Let me take this REAL slow. I've explained it about four times already.

Havenn't done so much legal stuff since my degree days.

 

A "life" sentence as handed down by European courts does NOT men "for the rest of your natural life".

The judge, in conjunction with the previously agreed statute, hands down a sentence of what is generally "life, with the reccomendation that the convict serve a minimum of X years".

 

Those X years may be 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, whatever. The number isn't that important in terms of the concept.

Though one can of course argue, at what level it should be set.

Want to argue about it?

Talk to Mr Schäuble; his mates had been in government since 1980 and could have changed the law.

 

One could say that X should be 100, 150 etc which parallels some sentences handed down by USA courts.

But that is arguably incompatable with European legislation and could be challenged in the courts.

The argument being, that NO ONE is iredeemable, and there has to be some concept of their return to society.

 

Prison sentences in European justice systems tend to run run concurrently, not consecutively.

Handing down a sentence of 5 x 100 years is meaningless and as mentioned above, quite possibly illegal under European law.

Let's say it would be our concept of a "cruel and unusal punishment".

 

Haule committed these murders. She was tried, she was convicted.

She has sat the minimum time in prison.

She has been judged to be no further threat to society / a reformed charachter and has been let out on probation.

 

We can argue now whether if such a case ever came to court again where X years should lie; but that has no bearing on Heule's case or any other of 101 convicted criminals.

 

She did the crime

She did the time.

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For "Heule" read "Haule" throughout.

MT is correct: Anyone sentenced to life in Germany is entitled to parole hearings after 15 years unless the court has found 1) exacerbating circumstances (such as extreme cruelty or considerable criminal energy) or 2) that the culprit is a menace to society, under which circumstances the culprit is subject to preventive detention, generally in a psychiatric jail.

Haule began hearings six years ago and has now been set free on parole, the court has felled a decision based on its findings within the legal regulations. You can be unhappy with that but at the moment you have to accept it. You can, of course, become a German citizen and political activist to change the laws; it's a free country.

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A "life" sentence as handed down by European courts does NOT men "for the rest of your natural life".

 

The argument being, that NO ONE is iredeemable, and there has to be some concept of their return to society.

Prison sentences in European justice systems tend to run run concurrently, not consecutively.

Handing down a sentence of 5 x 100 years is meaningless and as mentioned above, quite possibly illegal under European law.

Let's say it would be our concept of a "cruel and unusal punishment".

 

She has been judged to be no further threat to society / a reformed charachter and has been let out on probation.

 

She did the crime

She did the time.

I wonder how many "Life sentences" Hitler would have got?

6 Million Life sentences run concurrently means he would get the minimum 21 years also??? Could he have been considered "redeemed" and "returned to society" like Haule?

 

Maybe he would have also "renounced violence as a means to reach political goals" and been set free perhaps to pursue a new career as a photographer???

 

I would argue, some criminals are definitely NOT worthy of ever being returned to society and locking them up for the rest of their lives does not constitute "Cruel & Unusual punishment" but rather a reasonable compromise against execution. Some crimes are so heinous and vile that anything less than locking the criminal up for the rest of their life makes a mockery of the justice system.

The U.S. tends to err's on the side of giving harsh sentences rather than letting a criminal off too light. Granted some sentences, for instance sentences for drug crimes can be ridiculously long.

3-strikes=Life sometimes cause petty criminals to have sentences longer than murderers.

 

No system is perfect...

But letting Haule a murderous terrorist out after only 21 years because she now says she renounces violence is insane.

She did the crime,

but the time she did was a little short…… Oder?

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"Somehow I doubt any American convicted of murder by a German court would get such lenient treatment."

Isn't that prejudiced?

It is prejudiced if the American is not sentenced similarly for conviction of a similar set of crimes as those committed by the Red Army Faction terrorists where elements of the case are similar, or if the American receives a harsher or equally harsh sentence for a lesser crime.

 

 

Do you think of all the other countries in the Americas whenever you mention anti-Americanism...?

The real question is do those who criticize "Americans" have citizens of countries other than the US in mind when they complain about "Americans". No, they do not. Since they are not thinking about other countries when they unfairly and/or inaccurately criticize "America", I obviously do not have the other countries in the Western Hemisphere in mind. In Spanish, one uses estadounidense to refer to something "US-ian" to eliminate any of that sort of confusion, but bearing in mind the context of the discussion, it is obvious someone is not being accused of being, say, anti-Paraguayan.

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There's the argument about ctizenship of any one individual European state, but that is really peripheral.

 

It's about a fundamental concept.

Punishment (with some variability) for crimes is set in advance.

Those stautes are applied neutrally.

 

The convict in question seems to have experienced the contemporary legal justice system as would anyone else.

 

Next issue?

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I wonder how many "Life sentences" Hitler would have got?

6 Million Life sentences run concurrently means he would get the minimum 21 years also??? Could he have been considered "redeemed" and "returned to society" like Haule?

Maybe he would have also "renounced violence as a means to reach political goals" and been set free perhaps to pursue a new career as a photographer???

Well he wasn't a bad painter. So there may have been some hope for redemption.

post-5920-1187503467.jpg

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There is nothing special or "anti-American" about the treatment of Haule.

The murderer of actor Walter Sedlmayer, convicted to life sentence, was released after 16 years, for example. Sedlmayer had been tortured with knives.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/artikel/692/127489/

NO, that was Meister Eder aka Gustl Bayerhammer, cos he had found out that Sedlmayer had tried to get into Pumuckl's pants. Eder never even made to any court room, and later on Pumuckl was denied the right of having a girlfriend!

Get your facts right, man, or Conquistador will eat you alive...

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good work assholes. I feel especially enlightened after sorting through this one.

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NO, that was Meister Eder aka Gustl Bayerhammer, cos he had found out that Sedlmayer had tried to get into Pumuckl's pants.

Gustl Bayerhammer spent too long trying to get into the knickers of the "Aberglaubische Putzfrau" evn though everyone knows that Erni (God rest her soul) "liked plaid shirts" and was "good with a toolbox".

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I'm new here, and as I native German I won't overindulge in posting, as I understand that this forum is mainly for native English speakers. Just want to highlight some points – actually the NYT link in post # 3 given by Conquistador summarizes it very well:

 

– Eva Haule got a lifetime sentence in 1994 for murdering of 3 US servicemembers and injuring others. So it's not "6 years for three murders".

 

– The court stated the "particular severity of guilt" ("besondere Schwere der Schuld"), which prevented her from being eligible for release on parole after 15 years like many others with life sentence.

 

– Now, after a total of 21 years of prison time, there's by law another point of time where the convict's personality/conduct in prison is reassessed and a release on parole is possible.

 

– The verdict in 1994 was based on circumstantial evidence; apparently it is difficult to determine the exact role in the crimes with the members of a hermetic terrorist group. Most newspaper articles say that she participated in the murders as one of the main figures, it's not sure who actually carried them out.

 

– From my amateurish understanding of the German legal system, a sentence/punishment is supposed to redeem the crime/reestablish law/acknowledge the injustice done to the victim; and to deter; but in addition, the system aims at the convict's reintegration into society, provided he/she showed sufficiently successful self-reformation. Whether the release on parole for Haule is justified can be debated, and there is a discussion in the German public.

 

In short, not in the least trying to belittle Haule's crimes, I wanted to stress that the handling of her case is not lenient by German standards.

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