Climate change

1,948 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, BMurphy said:

those that have become very secular in recent years and decades

 

I think you have cause and effect reversed.  Religious people dont worry about the environment because god will fix it.

 

3 hours ago, BMurphy said:

A lot of people nowadays will mock those with traditional, conservative views on moral issues

 

This is true.  I myself do it all the time I find the supposed morality of the abrahamic religions laughable. 

 

That said, whilst I am pro abortion I dont understand the hate for people that are pro life.  I accept many people see babies as being living humans that just havent been born yet and it isnt hard for me to see why people are against killing them.  

 

3 hours ago, BMurphy said:

the Greens are radical leftists with a whole agenda that goes far beyond environmental protection.

 

This is entirely true and in my view one of the big problems the green movement has.  If it wasnt so openly far left a lot more people would be onboard.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, BMurphy said:

The whole hysteria around climate change has become a sort of a new religion. It's no coincidence that the countries that are most obsessed with climate change (i.e. the Western world) are those that have become very secular in recent years and decades. A lot of people nowadays will mock those with traditional, conservative views on moral issues (e.g. abortion) but fail to recognise the fanaticism that is being pushed down our throats every day in relation to climate change.

 

So many false equivalencies and leaps of logic in so few sentences. Yikes.

 

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Secondly, we all need to be on full alert to the issue of climate change being abused for political reasons. This is most definitely happening in Germany, where the radical Greens are enjoying a huge surge in popularity because of the current hysteria around climate change. In my view - and I'm not the only one who thinks this - the Greens are radical leftists with a whole agenda that goes far beyond environmental protection. If people care about the environment then ffs try to live your own life in an eco-friendly way rather than voting for those elitist communists. 

 

The Greens are not all leftists. Not being mashed into the Red/Blue Binary is an age-old Green plank. Some are lefty, some aren't.

 

But what's true is that they have attracted more left-leaners over the years due to 1) switched-on hippie types being quite concerned about mother earth (if you ever do psilocybin, you will probably understand), and 2) conservatives head-in-the-sand contrarian approach to the big issues of our era. If you're a greenish conservative, you have nowhere to go. Which is weird, because it's literally in the name CONSERVative. There has been plenty of lip-service by the SDP and CDU, and lots of windfarms of course, but overall it's not a primary concern, not for the environment's own sake (until maybe now -- we'll see how much Green policy they co-opt in the next election to win votes back). The environmental planks for Die Linke and FDP (where they exist) are thickly wrapped in party ideology, so respectively anti-capitalist radical fairness or whatnot, and freemarket magic. 

 

You can see a clearer distinction in Switzerland, which has a Green party rather like Germany's, but also a totally separate "Green Liberal" party, who are centrist and also successful in their own right.

 

The Green party of Canada has a lot of hippies, but I know there has been occasional infighting due to more conservative wings in the party as well. 

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15 hours ago, BMurphy said:

The whole hysteria around climate change has become a sort of a new religion. It's no coincidence that the countries that are most obsessed with climate change (i.e. the Western world) are those that have become very secular in recent years and decades.

Maybe non religious people are smarter?

 

15 hours ago, BMurphy said:

 

A lot of people nowadays will mock those with traditional, conservative views on moral issues (e.g. abortion) but fail to recognise the fanaticism that is being pushed down our throats every day in relation to climate change.

Can you name some of those fanaticism measures?

 

15 hours ago, BMurphy said:

 

Secondly, we all need to be on full alert to the issue of climate change being abused for political reasons. This is most definitely happening in Germany, where the radical Greens are enjoying a huge surge in popularity because of the current hysteria around climate change. In my view - and I'm not the only one who thinks this - the Greens are radical leftists with a whole agenda that goes far beyond environmental protection.

Unfortunately the left took over the eco agenda decades ago. But in the past few years the consensus spread to the right.

 

15 hours ago, BMurphy said:

If people care about the environment then ffs try to live your own life in an eco-friendly way rather than voting for those elitist communists. 

Unfortunately that is not enough, you need measures that affect the whole society.

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@zwiebelfisch: The reason religious/conservative people aren't freaking out over climate change isn't necessarily because they think that God will "fix it"; it's because their values are different. They hold traditional, long-established values and are wary of new secular "morals" being pushed down their throats by the media and politicians. As someone who leans more conservative myself (although I'm not that keen on simplistic labels), I find the current moralistic hysteria over climate change pathetic, given how other serious moral issues (e.g. mass abortion) are barely even discussed.

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1 hour ago, BMurphy said:

@zwiebelfisch: The reason religious/conservative people aren't freaking out over climate change isn't necessarily because they think that God will "fix it"; it's because their values are different. They hold traditional, long-established values and are wary of new secular "morals" being pushed down their throats by the media and politicians. As someone who leans more conservative myself (although I'm not that keen on simplistic labels), I find the current moralistic hysteria over climate change pathetic, given how other serious moral issues (e.g. mass abortion) are barely even discussed.

 

You show a remarkable ability to not understand the "other side". You claim yourself to be above simplistic labels although you 'lean conservative' (gee, really? we hadn't noticed!), yet throw strongly caricatured labels left and right (well, just to the left). Do you expect to be taken seriously when you cannot yourself produce what you also want? (Compassion and understanding for the "other side"?)

 

Once again, conserving the environment is hardly a new "moral". That environmental skepticism has been pushed by conservative governments is, I think, a pretty cynical example of pandering for votes. It's a position based less on objective logic and more on identity ("I'm CONSERVATIVE, and I don't like anything those lefty communists do! If they like cheese sandwiches, I now hate cheese!"). And yes, sure, "the Left" does this too on different issues. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Casting shade on environmentally focussed policy (and crystal clear science) seems a pretty obvious ploy by industries that will loose money/influence if the environment is put above profits. Petroleum, mining, industrial-scale fishing or agriculture, forestry, energy production, manufacturing, etc. These have obviously helped human progress immensely in various ways, but... In the past, human consequence on the environment on the large scale itself seemed fairly abstract, how could a spit in the ocean have any great impact? Now we know better, and we have better ways to disseminate the knowledge. But the idea itself is not new -- plenty of written examples from past centuries of people understanding that, say, species extinctions or local environmental collapses, were human caused. Compare discussions on the dodo in the 16th-19th centuries, or the discovery of Easter Island

 

Also, there is not wide consensus that "mass abortion" is a serious problem for humanity. 

 

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@alderhill: Coming from Canada, I don't expect you to have much time for those of us with more conservative views on social issues but I think you'll find there are plenty of people who oppose mass abortion. There was a referendum on legalising abortion just last year in Ireland, where I come from, and one-third of people voted against legalisation. That's still a minority unfortunately but the way some people carry on, one would be forgiven for thinking that everyone on the planet is pro-abortion (or "pro-choice" to use the nice-sounding euphemism) when they're not. 

 

As regards climate change, I don't deny that it's real but I do think it's quite possible that the effects are being exaggerated and that the issue is being misused for political purposes. I also think that radical environmentalism would mean the end of the comfortable lifestyles so many of us spoilt 21st century people enjoy. I'm not sure many people (including the ones who shout the loudest about climate change) are willing to face the consequences of this. Until they are, I'll call them out on their hypocrisy.

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1 hour ago, alderhill said:

 

Casting shade on environmentally focussed policy (and crystal clear science) seems a pretty obvious ploy by industries that will loose money/influence if the environment is put above profits. Petroleum, mining, industrial-scale fishing or agriculture, forestry, energy production, manufacturing, etc. These have obviously helped human progress immensely in various ways, but...

 

It is not crystal clear. 

 

Scientists are given grants to study things.   If those things are not substantiated, then no more grants.    If you think that Scientists don't need to go out and raise money for research, think again.   

 

Whoever gets to charge people for the carbon credits will become insanely rich.    That's where the money will be made.

 

The person who set up the carbon exchanges also happens to be the person who developed Credit Default Swaps for JP Morgan, Blythe Masters.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blythe_Masters

 

I disagree with BMurphy on the morality aspect.   In my opinion, Climate Change Doomsterism is a function of people who lean left not understanding the financial system.    

 

People who see Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the ECB riding to the rescue must be the biggest suckers ever.    Truly UFB.    People begging to be taken to the cleaners so that they can feel like they are helping out.   

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2 hours ago, BMurphy said:

@SpiderPig: In many online forums, the word "troll" basically means "someone who disagrees with me". By the way, I dislike you calling me "the Irish troll", as I think there is a hint of bigotry there. 

 

Says the man who just wrote "coming from Canada"...

 

2 hours ago, BMurphy said:

@alderhill: Coming from Canada, I don't expect you to have much time for those of us with more conservative views on social issues but I think you'll find there are plenty of people who oppose mass abortion.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at, though I guess you know nothing about Canadian politics (not that I expect you to). There are many social conservatives in Canada.

 

Again, if you can't see "the other side" with some sort of compassion, I don't know how you have the gall to demand it for yourself. If you're not willing to see some nuance on "the other side", you're destined for a life sentence of bitter angry old man-itude. Can't help you there.

 

If you don't like abortions, don't get one. No one is "pro-abortion", but many are open to the idea for the cases where they are warranted. No one thinks "hmmm, I think I'll go to the drug-fuelled orgy this weekend, and whatever, just get an abortion 8 months later". 

 

Has it occurred to you that more liberal people are more likely to get abortions, thus reducing the amount of potential future "leftist" voters? Does that ever keep you awake at night?

 

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As regards climate change, I don't deny that it's real but I do think it's quite possible that the effects are being exaggerated and that the issue is being misused for political purposes.

What's misuse and what would be the 'proper' use then?

 

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I also think that radical environmentalism would mean the end of the comfortable lifestyles so many of us spoilt 21st century people enjoy.

Perhaps "radical" environmentalism would. But who knows what your idea of "radical" even means...

 

I think many people, especially the young, do realize it means a change. They aren't the ones glued to ideas of their steak-a-day and SUVs, though. The "you can't change anything until you've thought of every single single fix" is stonewalling, nothing more.

 

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I'm not sure many people (including the ones who shout the loudest about climate change) are willing to face the consequences of this. Until they are, I'll call them out on their hypocrisy.

 

I'm sure there were French fops sitting around salons in powdered wigs saying the same thing in the 1780s. Or plenty of Irish in the 1910s, bemoaning the uppity rebels who were going to ruin everything and they didn't even have a solution to X, Y or Z!

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1 hour ago, balticus said:

It is not crystal clear. 

 

In terms of causes, it pretty much is. Future projections are always subject to some guesswork, especially the farther out you go. Plus, if you ever listened to the weather report and brought your umbrella for what turned out to be a sunny day, you will understand that climate is difficult enough to predict "today". At 'worst', you can maybe claim that there are other factors, like solar cycles, but there is little proof for it.

 

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Scientists are given grants to study things.   If those things are not substantiated, then no more grants.    If you think that Scientists don't need to go out and raise money for research, think again.   

 

Those dastardly scientists again! Making stuff up so they can get a miserly grant for another year!

 

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Whoever gets to charge people for the carbon credits will become insanely rich.    That's where the money will be made.

 

The idea of a pollution tax is not new. And carbon taxes are set-up to be income-neutral in many places. That it's a government cash grab (to fund abortion parades no doubt!) is a favourite canard of conservative media.

 

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I disagree with BMurphy on the morality aspect.   In my opinion, Climate Change Doomsterism is a function of people who lean left not understanding the financial system.    

 

Or don't put it on a pedestal.

 

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People who see Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the ECB riding to the rescue must be the biggest suckers ever. Truly UFB.

 

Well, that's for sure. 

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26 minutes ago, alderhill said:

 

In terms of causes, it pretty much is.

 

That's not correct.

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Future projections are always subject to some guesswork, especially the farther out you go.

 

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

 

Richard P. Feynman
 

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Plus, if you ever listened to the weather report and brought your umbrella for what turned out to be a sunny day, you will understand that climate is difficult enough to predict "today". At 'worst', you can maybe claim that there are other factors, like solar cycles, but there is little proof for it.

 

So you are essentially saying that there is no way that the theory can be falsified even if the observed results do not conform with results predicted by the theory?   

 

That is not very scientific.

 

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And carbon taxes are set-up to be income-neutral in many places.

 

and you believe that?   

 

:lol:  

 

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That it's a government cash grab (to fund abortion parades no doubt!) is a favourite canard of conservative media.

 

Read the Green New Deal. 

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46 minutes ago, balticus said:

That's not correct.

 

Human industrial activity has played THE largest role in temperature increases, and knock-on effects, in the last 150 years or so. it's a fact, deal with it.

 

46 minutes ago, balticus said:

So you are essentially saying that there is no way that the theory can be falsified even if the observed results do not conform with results predicted by the theory?   

 

No, that is not what I'm "essentially" saying. No one can predict the future, and the simple fact is we cannot predict every single element even of climate for "today". Some things are fairly obvious (ice-free arctic summers), other things are perhaps unexpected or only knowable as they happen, or even after the fact.

 

Luckily, we keep records of the past, and we can compare the past several decades of temps, etc. with current effects. The results are starting you right in the face, potato head.

 

46 minutes ago, balticus said:

and you believe that?   

 

One of your trademark 'intelligent' rebuttals, as usual.  

 

46 minutes ago, balticus said:

Read the Green New Deal. 

 

But one of hundreds of emissions/carbon tax policies around the world. It's not even close to implementation, if ever.

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29 minutes ago, alderhill said:

 

No, that is not what I'm "essentially" saying. No one can predict the future, and the simple fact is we cannot predict every single element even of climate for "today".

 

Yet the solution to tax carbon and trade offsets is sound?

29 minutes ago, alderhill said:

Some things are fairly obvious (ice-free arctic summers),

 

 

Ice free summers have been predicted for 2050.  

 

In 2000 it was predicted that snowfalls are now just a thing of the past - right before a massive blizzard.

 

Their models are awful.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20150912124604/http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

 

29 minutes ago, alderhill said:

other things are perhaps unexpected or only knowable as they happen, or even after the fact.

 

Yet it is certain that a cap and trade scam will save the world?   

 

29 minutes ago, alderhill said:

Luckily, we keep records of the past, and we can compare the past several decades of temps, etc. with current effects.

 

Go back further.    Don't use cherry picked numbers.  

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13 hours ago, balticus said:

 

Yet the solution to tax carbon and trade offsets is sound?

 

Basically, yes.

 

13 hours ago, balticus said:

Yet it is certain that a cap and trade scam will save the world?   

 

Probably no one thing will "save the world". I'm sure you have better ideas you've rustled up from the right-wing blogosphere. Do enlighten us, 

 

13 hours ago, balticus said:

Go back further.    Don't use cherry picked numbers.  

 

The human impact is still there. 

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22 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Maybe non religious people are smarter?

 

Can you name some of those fanaticism measures?

 

Unfortunately the left took over the eco agenda decades ago. But in the past few years the consensus spread to the right.

 

Unfortunately that is not enough, you need measures that affect the whole society.

Maybe non-religious people are smarter, I don't know. Although that is of course quite insulting to the billions of people worldwide who practice a religious faith. It's also implicitly racist as it implies that people in the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia (the most religious parts of the world) are less intelligent than we in the West. If that really is the case, what the hell is Germany and the rest of Western Europe doing, allowing in millions of religious Muslims in recent decades? But of course anti-religion "liberals" prefer to direct their mockery at white Christians rather than darker skinned Muslims, don't they, the latter being judged by entirely different standards?

 

The fanaticism is obvious: you can't turn on the bloody television without hearing climate change being mentioned. Then there is the talk about banning diesel cars and so on (and I'm sure that will be just the beginning).

 

The consensus on climate change has not really spread to the "right", it's spread to the centre, and the only reason for this is that the centre believes that the general public care about climate change. In other words, it's a cynical ploy to get votes from liberal middle-class people who think that being environmentally friendly makes them better, more virtuous people (regardless of how they give their private lives, of course!).

 

I don't want the government taking any authoritarian measures that "affect the whole society". I want to live in a democracy, not a left-green dictatorship.

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1 hour ago, BMurphy said:

Maybe non-religious people are smarter, I don't know. Although that is of course quite insulting to the billions of people worldwide who practice a religious faith. It's also implicitly racist as it implies that people in the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia (the most religious parts of the world) are less intelligent than we in the West.

There are intelligence correlation with socio-economical status, which are very strong. Also some religions/sects have very strong brainwashing techniques, coupled together with a social pressure or even laws. There are many countries where you cannot leave Islam, for example.

 

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If that really is the case, what the hell is Germany and the rest of Western Europe doing, allowing in millions of religious Muslims in recent decades? But of course anti-religion "liberals" prefer to direct their mockery at white Christians rather than darker skinned Muslims, don't they, the latter being judged by entirely different standards?

Not me, for sure, I treat all religious nutcases proportionally to their fanaticism.

 

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The fanaticism is obvious: you can't turn on the bloody television without hearing climate change being mentioned. Then there is the talk about banning diesel cars and so on (and I'm sure that will be just the beginning).

There is good reason to mention it all the time: so that people like you hear about it. Diesel banning is regarding health problems in cities, not with climate change, you are mixing them up.

 

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The consensus on climate change has not really spread to the "right", it's spread to the centre, and the only reason for this is that the centre believes that the general public care about climate change. In other words, it's a cynical ploy to get votes from liberal middle-class people who think that being environmentally friendly makes them better, more virtuous people (regardless of how they give their private lives, of course!).

The consensus on climate change is strong with scientists, independent of affiliation. Your refusal is a refusal of science and logic, but I guess that is what they brainwashed you into.

 

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I don't want the government taking any authoritarian measures that "affect the whole society".

Like mandatory education? Or are you also against that?

 

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I want to live in a democracy, not a left-green dictatorship.

Then be a democrat and accept differences of opinions! Also accept that in a democracy the majority decides.

 

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This thread is about climate change. Any post not directly related to climate change is liable for deletion. Persistent offenders will be banned.

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I know nothing about climate change and even less about any sciences.

All I can say from a Cretan perspective is winter is starting several weeks later than it did even 10 years ago and finishing a month later - according to some foreigners I know who have been here for decades and some older Greeks I talk to. ( Especially the people doing the olive harvesting.)

 

Hamburg will not have a climate change- it will be cold, grey and wet 11 months a year till the cows come home!

😌

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5 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

The consensus on climate change is strong with scientists, independent of affiliation. Your refusal is a refusal of science and logic, but I guess that is what they brainwashed you into.

Actually, I never said that I didn't believe that climate change is real - I'm simply sick and tired of the hysteria, hyprocrisy and virtue-signalling surrounding it. I'm also worried about radical leftists like the German Greens (or the likes of Alexenadria Ocasio-Cortez in the US) hijacking the issue for political purposes.

 

Who are the "they" that are supposed to have brainwashed me?

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39 minutes ago, Editor Bob said:

This thread is about climate change. Any post not directly related to climate change is liable for deletion. Persistent offenders will be banned.

 

@editor bob, I'm glad you're talking about climate change.  ;)

 

It's a turbulent  blizzard of non-related comments to climate change on this thread with strong winds, murky waters, and numbing temperatures.

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8 hours ago, alderhill said:

 

Probably no one thing will "save the world". I'm sure you have better ideas ... Do enlighten us, 

 

Nuclear.  It won't save the world but it would reduce CO2.  It isn't viable because it would reduce the amount of carbon credits / taxes.  

 

I think nuclear power is a good idea independent of my view that climate doomsterism does not have a sound basis.

 

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