Climate change

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Just now, Krieg said:

Then do not talk about predictions but about things we already did.   We killed like half of the animal population already. 

 

For us mostly has been drastically reducing the use of plastic, long flights and diet changes. 

 

But species extinction is unrelated to changing temperatures. In fact some species have actually increased the last 20 years. I was friendly with Indian tiger conservation groups 20 years ago and they all say the tiger population of India is now increasing thanks to their efforts. I also read somewhere the polar bear population is also increasing.

 

Just now, Krieg said:

As far as I have seen, the mother is not using the kid, she is just supporting the kid. 

 

It seems like we should consider it.  And anyway, common sense says we are destroying the planet and we have an economic system based on permanent growth but resources are limited, we are increasing the population too fast, etc.

 

That's Malthus theory of population growth. I suggest you check out the 1975 Club of Rome meeting.

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Just now, Krieg said:

For us mostly has been drastically reducing the use of plastic, long flights and diet changes. 

 

Now that's something everyone agrees on. I've changed my bike bottles to non-BPA because I was drinking plastic soup. Our travel is all within Europe also. Diet? Yep it has come out that the US Food pyramid has been proven wrong and reducing carbs is the way to go.

 

Also, within the next 20 years, more food will be grown in gardens. The era of strawberries in January will end thank goodness. Permaculture will be seen as mainstream in local food systems.

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9 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

Now that's something everyone agrees on. I've changed my bike bottles to non-BPA because I was drinking plastic soup.

Probably best to make sure they are plastic free rather than just BPA free.  

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37 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

I think you should go and google "autism for dummies" or something like that.  It is OK, what people normally knows about autism is very little, you can see it right now, she is being criticised because of her facial expressions and the way she talks, someone here even compare her to Hitler.   Of course she can't behave like a neurotypical because she is not.   

 

But i am not criticizing her looks or her autism.   

37 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Then do not talk about predictions but about things we already did.   We killed like half of the animal population already.    I guess you think we are not in a verge or mass extinction because the human population is still growing.  You think mass extinction is about human beings only.

 

Was this mass killing an effect from climate change?   If not specifically, then it would be illogical to lump it in with climate change rather than other environmental problems. 

37 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Oh I see, the WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS IN AFRICA?? argument.  I see.

 

You claimed that Greta has had an impact.   If that is the case, we should see changes in consumer behavior.    There should be more than anecdotal evidence and the impact should last more than a few weeks.  

 

 

37 minutes ago, Krieg said:

P.S., Vienna already implemented the super-cheap public transport train monthly pass long time ago and currently there are proposals in Berlin to reduce it to 365€ a year.   But even if that's approved, I guess ... KIDS IN AFRICA!!! HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THEM???

 

Show evidence of sustained changes, e.g.

 

1.   changes in petrol consumption

2.   changes in auto purchases

3.   a glut of used cars on the market from people who realize they are unnecessary and climate unfriendly. 

4.   reduction of non-business flights

5.   poor earnings reports from travel businesses which have been healthy up to this point.  

6.   reduction in meat consumption.

7.   increase in public transport usage.

 

if reductions in public transport prices don't take cars off the road, well then maybe people just like to drive and the impact is that the public transport has even less money.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

Also, within the next 20 years, more food will be grown in gardens. The era of strawberries in January will end thank goodness. Permaculture will be seen as mainstream in local food systems.

 

Nah, sadly not.  For all the talk of allotments and the like its a tiny fraction.  People want their avocados, their bananas, teas and coffees and everything else.  A few hipsters will grow 3 or 4 tomatos on their balcony and lie to themselves that they are changing the world, the rest will carry on as always.

 

The days of "proper diets" of locally raised meat, locally grown vegetables and everything seasonal have gone. It will be amazon destroying soy, cashews ruining the lives of indians, avocados flown day fresh to your door and smug people telling you that this is somehow saving the word beacuse they dont drink milk forever more.

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Just now, snowingagain said:

Probably best to make sure they are plastic free rather than just BPA free.  

 

That means metal SIGG bottle, which are actually quite expensive.

 

Just now, zwiebelfisch said:

Nah, sadly not.  For all the talk of allotments and the like its a tiny fraction.  People want their avocados, their bananas, teas and coffees and everything else.  A few hipsters will grow 3 or 4 tomatos on their balcony and lie to themselves that they are changing the world, the rest will carry on as always.

 

The days of "proper diets" of locally raised meat, locally grown vegetables and everything seasonal have gone. It will be amazon destroying soy, cashews ruining the lives of indians, avocados flown day fresh to your door and smug people telling you that this is somehow saving the word beacuse they dont drink milk forever more.

 

You have a point. I was one of those idealists 10 years ago and dreamed of the "Good Life". I grow veg and fruit. Let me tell you I am the only one in my neighbourhood bar one who does so (we share tomato seedlings etc in spring). It is back breaking and can be inefficient. I have just ordered "Square Foot Gardening" for next year from my local bookshop (I look up the ISBN on Amazon then send them the link and wait a few weeks to keep the money in the local economy - I don't need it by DHL next day). 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

That means metal SIGG bottle, which are actually quite expensive.

SIGG first went BPA free (but possibly not BPS free) now changed to co polyester lining which is pretty inert.  However still plastic.  Cheaper unlined steel bottles and thermos can be found.

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1 hour ago, balticus said:

You claimed that Greta has had an impact.   If that is the case, we should see changes in consumer behavior.    There should be more than anecdotal evidence and the impact should last more than a few weeks.  

 

Maybe the Greta story started yesterday for you, for families with kids in school started summer last year.   Our changes were introduced one year ago.  Of course I am not saying we are going to save the world, but to me the important thing is that awareness was seeded in a lot of kids, I think we the adults won't do any crap for the planet because we are selfish but maybe the next generation will.

 

1 hour ago, balticus said:

 

 

 

Show evidence of sustained changes, e.g.

 

1.   changes in petrol consumption

2.   changes in auto purchases

3.   a glut of used cars on the market from people who realize they are unnecessary and climate unfriendly. 

4.   reduction of non-business flights

5.   poor earnings reports from travel businesses which have been healthy up to this point.  

6.   reduction in meat consumption.

7.   increase in public transport usage.

 

if reductions in public transport prices don't take cars off the road, well then maybe people just like to drive and the impact is that the public transport has even less money.  

 

 

 

So, more WHAT ABOUT THOSE POOR AFRICAN KIDS!!!!!

 

 

P.S., I don't even know what to answer to someone requesting immediate proof of something that might take 20 or 30 years to achieve and even for that you will need that people work hard for that.

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1 hour ago, jeremytwo said:

read somewhere the polar bear population is also increasing.

 

You've read wrong, very wrong. It's the opposite.

 

Certain species or populations of a species may benefit from climate change. As the arctic warms, it will certainly be colonized by some trees and lichens, etc. Mosquitoes and certain insects will spread their ranges. But on the whole, many many many many more species will not be able to adapt to such rapid changes, and they will die out.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Krieg said:

 I can see already changes in kids attitude and kids forcing their parents to make changes in their lifestyle.    

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

P.S., I don't even know what to answer to someone requesting immediate proof of something that might take 20 or 30 years to achieve and even for that you will need that people work hard for that.

 

I don't know how to answer someone who extrapolates anecdotal evidence but scoffs at the idea that it should be apparent at a larger scale. 

 

If your kids have urged you to stop driving them to school and will tough it out through the rainy season, then congratulations.   

 

If you want to claim widespread impact, but no metrics to back it up for 20-30 years, then your case is not very strong.  

 

If you follow economic data, people cut through politicians happy talk by looking at trucking, petrol demand and electricity usage.   Behavior changes are noticeable and trackable.   

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1 minute ago, balticus said:

I don't know how to answer someone who extrapolates anecdotal evidence but scoffs at the idea that it should be apparent at a larger scale. 

 

If your kids have urged you to stop driving them to school and will tough it out through the rainy season, then congratulations.   

 

If you want to claim widespread impact, but no metrics to back it up for 20-30 years, then your case is not very strong.

 

Never claimed we are going to save the planet.  I think I even wrote that.   I have only written multiple times that the positive thing of the Greta effect is creating awareness in kids.  That's is.  

 

I don't believe our generation is the one that will do something for the planet.  But I strongly believe that the next generation has a much better chance to make the change.

 

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1 hour ago, jeremytwo said:

That means metal SIGG bottle, which are actually quite expensive

 

 

They cost like 20 bucks and last for several years.  I thought you were a 1 percenter.  And there are cheaper options anyway.

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23 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Never claimed we are going to save the planet.  I think I even wrote that.   I have only written multiple times that the positive thing of the Greta effect is creating awareness in kids.  That's is.  

 

 

you wrote this :

 

I can see already changes in kids attitude and kids forcing their parents to make changes in their lifestyle.    

 

 

If kids are forcing parents to make changes, you will see some of the changes i listed above and it will take months, not years.  If the momentum is fleeting, you won't see much of anything.   

 

There is an army of statisticians who look at electricity, petrol, new and used auto sales, etc on a weekly or monthly basis.   We'll see (or not). 

 

 

 

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I'd just like to add that even my generation taught our parents how to recycle later in life. It didn't exist when I was a child AFAIK.
 

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17 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

I'd just like to add that even my generation taught our parents how to recycle later in life. It didn't exist when I was a child AFAIK.
 

When I were a lad... the milkman delivered our milk to the door in glass bottles, he also took away the empties to be reused, Same with the Beer At Home (Davenports) and the pop-man (Corona). Pubs also recycled empty bottles, and a deposit was charged for off-sales bottles. Nearly all soft drinks were sold in bottles, which had a deposit charged on them. Canned drinks were virtually unheard of.

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5 hours ago, balticus said:

i would go with Chauncy Gardner from the movie "Being There"

 

So, she's the embodiment of childlike sincerity come to show governments why all of their work is folly without honesty?

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41 minutes ago, Wulfrun said:

When I were a lad... the milkman delivered our milk to the door in glass bottles, he also took away the empties to be reused,

 

Very few know how risky it was back then, with Humphreys stealing the milk all the time. Bastard humphreys.

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Wulfrun said:

When I were a lad... the milkman delivered our milk to the door in glass bottles, he also took away the empties to be reused, Same with the Beer At Home (Davenports) and the pop-man (Corona). Pubs also recycled empty bottles, and a deposit was charged for off-sales bottles. Nearly all soft drinks were sold in bottles, which had a deposit charged on them. Canned drinks were virtually unheard of.

 

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