Climate change

2,136 posts in this topic

On 8/20/2020, 9:57:53, Gambatte said:

I bought my petrol car for 5k, it was 10yr old at the time and I expect it will last me 10-15yr since purchase, and it will cost me 100/month including tax insurance repairs TUV fuel. 

I understand there are good reasons why EV can be potentially attractive and that's absolutely fine. But...

 

How long should I drive an EV so that the lower running cost will offset the higher purchase price?

How come there is discussion on charging EVs, but not on the high purchase cost?

 

I thought, @Gambattte, was just making the point, that there are no cheap run a rounds in the EV market, and if you want a cheap run a round car you can only buy a cheap Deisel or petrol car.

 

Anything else, means you have more money in feed your feelings of green ness.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Why not a second hand Zoe or Leaf? Maybe I already asked you about it...

 

Because the used market sucks.  They want way too much money for their old technology   And for not so old cars they want to profit from the bonuses. 

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3 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Because the used market sucks.  They want way too much money for their old technology   And for not so old cars they want to profit from the bonuses. 

 

Ok, but thats only going to get worse

 

Tesla, are talking about a million mile battery, and 700km coming soon - solid state batterys etc

 

Who will want to buy an 8 year old Leaf for 10000 Euro, when the new cars offer far better spec's

 

If you are in the market for a cheap second car, petrol or diesel represent the best value and while batteries continue to improve at this rate, second hand cars are not attractive.

 

Until battery developement slows down, the old cars are going to look very shit, compared to the new ones. Its a bit like the mobile phone market, but much worse.

 

 

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Yes, the Tesla Model 3 is the car which retains more value in America. But when a next gen comes, then suddenly drops.

I think 500km range will become the new normal in the next 2-3 years. As soon as the new normal is 700km, then range problem is gone from depreciation.

Still, car depreciation will be lower in general, as EVs can potentially last much longer than ICE cars. This is good in terms of ownership, but it means no cheap second hands for a long time.

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31 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

That's an interesting selection/price bracket. Anyone running an 8-10 year old electric car (or know someone who is)? I'd be interested to know how the range is holding up after, so many years and say 70k km. A family member back in the UK is looking at a new 2nd hand car, and there are a fair few Leafs and Zoes at around that sort of price too. The Zoe requires a battery lease/purchase on top of the purchase price, but I'm unsure how expensive those are.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Yes, the Tesla Model 3 is the car which retains more value in America. But when a next gen comes, then suddenly drops.

I think 500km range will become the new normal in the next 2-3 years. As soon as the new normal is 700km, then range problem is gone from depreciation.

Still, car depreciation will be lower in general, as EVs can potentially last much longer than ICE cars. This is good in terms of ownership, but it means no cheap second hands for a long time.

 

Sure battery tech is important, but its not the most important factor 

 

Most people get rid of their ICE not beacuse the engine stops ( like the EV battery ),  but because after 10 years or so, maybe the ABS computer will fail, for my car that was 4K ( ok  toyota paid for me :)), or the brakes need renewing, maybe 2K, or the suspension requireures new parts or the Air con does not work anymore and the list is endless. Model 3 owners will find at 10 years or so, that repair costs for the basics will piss them off so much that the car will die, but maybe not because of the battery.

 

Like with your old Mercedes, Mike, you said you got rid of it because you got a bill of 4K to pay, then you bought a Tesla.

 

But Tesla, parts and systems will get old, its performance will be crap in comparsion to a New tesla, you will face all kinda non battery repairs and you will get pissed off with it and want to buy a new car.

 

Thats just the normal cycle

 

 

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41 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Not true, you can get an old Leaf for less than 10.000€ and even less than 7000€. These are 8 year old cars. IF there were 10 year old cars, their price would be similar.

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?dam=0&isSearchRequest=true&ms=18700;53&p=:7000&sfmr=false&vc=Car

 

EDIT: the reply was for @yesterday, but also fits @Krieg

 

So three cars in the whole Germany make a good used market?   And who is going to pay 7k for an almost 10 years old EV with technology from the electro-jurassic time?    They probably have a 80km range and the battery will die next week.   One of them is a import from Japan, another one is a car dealer selling it as a private sale ...

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2 hours ago, Krieg said:

So three cars in the whole Germany make a good used market?

In fairness to @MikeMelga his search criteria was Nissan Leaf for under €7k. If you search for all used electric vehicles under 7k there are 403 results. I think that's pretty decent.

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4 minutes ago, dstanners said:

In fairness to @MikeMelga his search criteria was Nissan Leaf for under €7k. If you search for all used electric vehicles under 7k there are 403 results. I think that's pretty decent.

 

 

Jein. Those 403 cars are mostly Renault Zoes with rented battery, some Smarts with rented battery, and some useless Renault Twizy, and some weird cars that failed in the market and for which you will probably struggle to maintain them.    He had actually a point making his search like he did, if you are going to buy something with that budget, the only realistic choice is probably the Leaf.

 

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Well, if you stretch it to 10k, then you get 50 Leafs and many Zoes.

It´s hard to compare with the example given, as 10 years ago there were no EVs and 8 years ago there were only a handful.

My point was on the price. You can get cars on that price range.

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ok, but what a choice 

 

You can have an 8 year old leaf, which does not have regen-breaking or water cooling of cells, thats probably got rust issues, brake issues, range issues or you can have a brand petrol car Dacia, etc ( for 7000K)  with about the same space inside.

 

You have to be a Green idiot to want to take that on, face it, like Krieg said, EV's are very different today- its like a compleltey different tech.

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Then you have to wait 4-6 years, until the decent Leafs or the initial Model 3 turn 8-10 years...

TBH, at the current rate of depreciation, I think a new Model 3 will be cheaper than a used one.

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6 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

My hopes are on Dacia for next year to finally produce an affordable decent EV.  I've been patiently waiting for something decent to come in the 20-25k range that is not a tiny car.


Me too, I’m willing to pay a few €€ more than that but size is essential. I don’t have to worry about finding parking places in my day to day life and I want the car to be useful whenever I need to carry tools, bikes, tables, or wife, two children and enough luggage for vacations.

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'Unprecedented' ice loss as Greenland breaks record

 

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Scientists say the loss of ice in Greenland lurched forward again last year, breaking the previous record by 15%.

 

A new analysis says that the scale of the melt was "unprecedented" in records dating back to 1948.

 

High pressure systems that became blocked over Greenland last Summer were the immediate cause of the huge losses. But the authors say ongoing emissions of carbon are pushing Greenland into an era of more extreme melting.

 

Over the past 30 years, Greenland's contribution to global sea levels has grown significantly as ice losses have increased.

A major international report on Greenland released last December concluded that it was losing ice seven times faster than it was during the 1990s.

 

Today's new study shows that trend is continuing.

BBC

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Climate change: Warmth shatters section of Greenland ice shelf

 

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A big chunk of ice has broken away from the Arctic's largest remaining ice shelf - 79N, or Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden - in north-east Greenland.

 

The ejected section covers about 110 square km; satellite imagery shows it to have shattered into many small pieces.

 

The loss is further evidence say scientists of the rapid climate changes taking place in Greenland.

 

"The atmosphere in this region has warmed by about 3°C since 1980," said Dr Jenny Turton.

 

"And in 2019 and 2020, it saw record summer temperatures," the polar researcher at Friedrich-Alexander University in Germany told BBC News.

 

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The Arctic is burning like never before — and that’s bad news for climate change

 

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Fires are releasing record levels of carbon dioxide, partly because they are burning ancient peatlands that have been a carbon sink.

 

Wildfires blazed along the Arctic Circle this summer, incinerating tundra, blanketing Siberian cities in smoke and capping the second extraordinary fire season in a row. By the time the fire season waned at the end of last month, the blazes had emitted a record 244 megatonnes of carbon dioxide — that’s 35% more than last year, which also set records. One culprit, scientists say, could be peatlands that are burning as the top of the world melts.

 

Peatlands are carbon-rich soils that accumulate as waterlogged plants slowly decay, sometimes over thousands of years. They are the most carbon-dense ecosystems on Earth; a typical northern peatland packs in roughly ten times as much carbon as a boreal forest. When peat burns, it releases its ancient carbon to the atmosphere, adding to the heat-trapping gases that cause climate change.

 

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David Attenborough: A Life On Our Planet 

 

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In this unique feature documentary, titled David Attenborough: A Life On Our Planet, the celebrated naturalist reflects upon both the defining moments of his lifetime and the devastating changes he has seen.

 

Coming to Netflix October 4 2020, the film addresses some of the biggest challenges facing life on our planet, providing a snapshot of global nature loss in a single lifetime.

 

With it comes a powerful message of hope for future generations as Attenborough reveals the solutions to help save our planet from disaster. 

 

 

 

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