What happens if Scotland gains independence?

825 posts in this topic

Ha! Rump UK is one term going around, vontrappster! But you can´t trust what´s in a steak these days so we still need a new term!

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There are always exceptions to the rule.Switzerland has been living of the world around them as it has a strategic location and was an ideal tax haven which has come to an end now and Norway was blessed with oil. Here again, there are just about as many Norwegians and Swiss here in NA as there are in their home countries.

 

I don't think Scotland would have any problems doing well for itself outside of the UK, but it would be insignificant, and I don't think it's really thought of the implications of that. It would no longer be part of a heavy hitter at the UN, World Bank, IMF and EU. It would be extremely unlikely that it will be able to keep any of the EU concessions that Thatcher was able to wrangle for the UK, i.e. the rebate, being permitted to keep sterling, etc., which means Scotland's net contribution to the EU budget could (likely) actually increase upon "rejoining" the EU. Furthermore, it's monetary policy will still be out of its control, whether it maintains the pound or is forced to join the Eurozone as part of its requirements for joining the EU. Lastly, it would have had to run to the ECB and IMF like Ireland was forced to do had the UK government not bailed out its banking sector, specifically RBS.

 

Probably the biggest question is tax policy and the size of the welfare state. The SNP wants to have its cake and eat it, too. They want competitive tax rates, i.e. a corporate tax rate lower than the UK's current rate, and then want to maintain a welfare state larger than that of the UK's and more similar to that of Scandinavian countries. They are not going to have the vast amounts of natural resources that Norway has, so they're going to have to make deep concessions somewhere, be it on tax rates or on the size of the welfare state they want to have. Either way, I don't think the SNP is being honest in this area. They're promising Scots everything, i.e. low rates and an expansive welfare state, and that is not going to be possible.

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Trump: "Sarah, I wanna get rid of that house"

Sarah: "It's going to create a bit of a stir"

Trump: "Who cares? Who cares? You know what? Who cares?"

(11:37)

 

 

 

Recent BBC documentary claiming that Scotland has been "had" by Trump and his Aberdeen golf resort. BBC alleges that:

 

  • the promised jobs have not materialised
  • Trump is worth much less than he claims and is the main beneficiary of the land purchase, with the land now worth much more on paper
  • Trump was involved in a failed property investment in Florida with a Mafia associate, someone who claimed to have been a Trump adviser (after this point is raised, Trump walks out of the interview)

 

Ironic that Trump should returns to Scotland supposedly in his Highland mother's honour, and try to evict people from their homes and have his son (10:45) shoot up the local wildlife. But only possible with Alex Salmond's help, since this would not have happened unless Salmond hadn't stepped in to overrule the local council's decision to refuse the project.

 

Wonder what else Salmond plans for Scotland, e.g. in return for the two pandas leased from China. Open-cast mining in the Highlands?

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To both sides, why can we not have discussions with proper arguments about the future of Scotland. For every "Salmond is in the pocket of Trump" there is a "Labour are advertising North Ayrshire as a sweat shop to foreign investors". Whatever the decision, it will last for longer than either Salmond, Trump and (if things keep going this way) the Labour party.

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I have honestly tried to look at it from both sides, and I still (years after this notion of a referendum came about) have yet to see ONE benefit from going it alone or see one factually backed up comment coming from the pro-independence end.

 

Salmond and co talk about separation as if we are right in the midst of the highland clearances again and have English soldiers stationed at every street corner oppressing us. It's embarrassing and ludicrous. I can't believe polls still indicate 1 in 3 claim they will vote "yes"!

 

I got chatting to a random old duffer in a pub a few months back, he was admiring my kilt after some event I'd been at required wearing it (I don't just wear it for no reason!). For some reason he felt the need to make a comment about "better after independence" (can't remember the exact details) which irritated me no end and I couldn't leave it. He rambled on for ages and ages and I countered with everything I knew and nothing he said outdid anything I said.

 

His closing statement was "Ok then...Do you like Braveheart?" and I said "yes I do, it's been my favourite film since I first saw it". To which he just stared at me, had no idea what to say and eventually mumbled "ok then".

 

There is nothing substantial behind the "yes" campaigners other than a bitterness about feeling hard done by from hundreds of years ago. "Jokes" and jibes are all over the place these days from rUK with comments such as "well, they can piss off then the sooner we are shot of them (Scots) the better. I find this a pretty awful period as a Scot - embarrassing, cringeworthy and verging on the insane. We are not all racist and demented and I hope the rest of the world understands this.

 

Vontrappster is right - Scotland will be completely insignificant. Why anyone would want this after hundreds of years of working for and with the Union I don't know.

 

As for that fat bastard Salmond and his saltire at Wimbledon...*cringe*. Murray wouldn't have been able to spell "Wimbledon" were it not for rUK and Europe.

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Sweet living with money on tap!

 

Scottish independence: Referendum White Paper unveiled

Scottish independence: White Paper at-a-glance

 

 

Scottish citizens entitled to Scottish passport at the same cost as UK one.

...

Scottish-born British citizens living in another country will automatically be Scottish citizens.

 

British citizens living in Scotland considered Scottish citizens, including those holding dual nationality.

...

The matter of citizenship is a defining characteristic of an independent state, the White Paper says. It proposes an "inclusive model of citizenship".

 

British citizens habitually resident in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens

 

Citizenship by descent will be available to those whose parent* or grandparent* qualifies for Scottish citizenship

 

dual citizenship with the UK will be permitted

 

UK passports will be recognised until their expiry date.

* Donald Trump's mother was Scottish and he's been buying Scottish land. Could this mean a President Trump? If foreign nationals of Scottish descent acquired Scottish citizenship, how would that benefit them and/or Scotland? Isn't there a legal distinction between nationals and citizens?

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Scottish citizens entitled to Scottish passport at the same cost as UK one.

Given the high price of a UK passport I'm not so sure that would be considered to be a good thing...

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Have just been looking at the official Scottish government site, and it says:

 

 

Entitlement to UK passports will be a matter for the rest of the UK.

So while the BBC have understood that "dual citizenship with the UK will be permitted", the Scottish government apparently cannot say if Scots would continue to be eligible for a British passport. Mixed messages again, as with supposed "automatic" EU membership. Yet they seem to want people to trust them to run a country.

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Of course the Scottish government (current and possibly-future-independent) cannot say what the United Kingdom will decide vis-a-vis dual citizenship. Not the ScotGov call. In the same way they can't say what the German government will hold of people having dual Scottish/German passports.

 

I am just disappointed I won't be able to sneak my way to a Scottish passport... maybe I should raise a pre-emptive complaint for discrimination with the EU courts: UK foreigners can get (or automatically) get a Scottish passport, but Dutch ones don't. Surely that's discrimination based on nationality...

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We´ll organise a petition for you, Gwaptiva! :) I´m sure you´d get one.

 

What I find discriminatory is the fact that a British citizen earning under 18,000 pounds a year in the UK cannot let his non-EU wife or husband stay in the UK but any EU citizen can live there. That is a disgrace.

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You never know, Gwaptiva! Scots living in Northern Ireland, Wales and England aren´t allowed to vote for their own country´s future in the referendum! That is a disgrace.

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Citizens of the Republic of Ireland that live in the UK *do* get a vote for UK General Elections though... curioser and curioser

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Interesting to see the early response to the white paper.

 

They range from "it's all rubbish" to "it does not answer the important questions"

It's not all rubbish, although it does have some leaps of faith included. It can partly be seen as the negotiation starting position of the Scottish Gov given a Yes. It certainly gives a good account of itself in answering the important questions, at least thse that can be answered at this time.

 

I wonder however if the detail is not the point. Or if the detail is 80%~ clear, the questions becomes an emotional one. The Yes Scotland group need to win the 'hearts and minds' of the undecided for ths to work. The white paper can be a basis for that over the next year.

 

I also think that the process unleashed here, with the coversations and ideas present, means that the relationship between Scotand and the rUK, even with a No vote, will never be the same again. A No cannot mean the status quo.

 

Interesting 10 months or so coming up.

 

Thankyouplease

 

B

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You´re right, bobD! I reckon the inter-rUK debates could heat up, too. Anyway: who gets the kids: Northern Ireland? :) ( question of mine stolen from a source I can´t remember..I think it was an American but can´t remember who!)

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I was being slightly facetious earlier on, so just to join bobD in raising the level of this debate again: you have a good point, bobD, when you say that it's a starting point. And indeed, even if at one time there was a debate about adding a "or should we have more devolved powers" third option on the referendum ballot, there will have been no need for that. By all signs, it's going to be a close run thing, one way or the other. If it's a close NO, the Westminster parties will need to look really closely at "reform".

 

Of course, the NO camp has it a lot easier than the YES camp, and the reactions demonstrate that: they NOs can simply call it all rubbish, scare the electorate into sticking with the devil they know, whereas the YES camp will have to provide loads of details that then nobody reads. Also, as was pointed out indirectly by the BBC website, there will be elections following soon after a decision, and elections soon (or immediately) after independence, should it go that way. At that point, the SNP's (and that's what it is of course) White Paper becomes an election manifesto. It is only meant to show what the SNP wants for Scotland after independence.

 

Of course, the NO camp aren't playing that game but it would be nice to see their "contingency" election manifestos.

 

Oh, and John: Northern Ireland isn't part of the UK, so it doesn't affect them :P

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Northern Ireland IS part of the UK, Gwaptiva! On my passport it says " United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ". That´s the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom! Whether it should be or not is not for me to judge or decide. I´m in the Bundesland of Hamburg! :D

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Checked your profile, Gwaptiva! You´re a Leo!!! Like my brother Ted!!! Dear me.... :P

 

Bavaria? Was down there checking out housing prices the other week. Bloody hell , even the villages are more expensive than Hamburg!

 

Nice mountain things, though!

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I believe that the third option of more devolved powers would clearly have been the most popular choice. As we don't have it, and the fact that this is being billed (and should be) a once in a generation chance, I hope most of those who would have voted for devo+ will fall on the yes side of the divide next September, but it's all to play for.

 

My heart gives a cautious Yes, while my head was No, but given this white paper and other papers I've read, my head is now also a Yes.

This is all academic anyway, I have no vote and I will not be moving back to Scotland before next September to secure one.

 

B

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