What happens if Scotland gains independence?

825 posts in this topic

 

If the yes votes win, how will that effect Scots living in Europe when they are no longer EU? i.e. work permits, etc.

 

Please excuse me if this has already been addressed.

 

What is a Scot?

 

English, Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish all have the same passport and are regarded as British. There's no difference.

 

If Scotland becomes independent, I guess you'd have to apply for a Scottish passport and probably renounce your British one. Who will be eligible for a Scottish passport? Born there? Resident there? Great-great-great grandfather was called Rabbie?

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But given that Scotland already implicitly complies with EU rules and standards, there would be no extra costs to meeting those standards, so it may pay not to join the EU, but the EFTA like Norway and others. If this can be agreed quickly, it would ease the pain for trade and access to EU markets until a point the country joins the EU proper.

 

The main 'EU issue' is if Scotland could continue to maintain the current opt-outs that the UK has negotiated:

- Schengen Agreement (i.e. no border controls with other Schengen countries)

- Economic and Monetary Union (i.e. the euro)

- Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (i.e. labour law)

- Area of freedom, security and justice (policies on internal and external border controls, common travel visa, immigrations and asylum policies).

 

If a new country joins the EU, they are not allowed any opt-outs. The question is if Scotland is a new country, or not.

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There is no question. It is clear that in this situation they can stay only if all the other members say yes and Spain already said they will say no. Probably Italy and France will say no as well because they have as well issues with separatists, not as big as spain though.

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Who will be eligible for a Scottish passport? Born there? Resident there? Great-great-great grandfather was called Rabbie?

 

Here is the proposed eligibility for a Scottish passport:

post-31990-1411042889382_thumb.jpg

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@ 8420PR

 

I agree that these have to be negotiated, but this will take time.

Scotland is not without good arguments (fisheries, oil, wind) to ease the process somewhat.

It will take time, but for individuals such as myself and many Scots here in Germany, so long the UK gov dos not remove UK passports and citizenship from people, I would not be forced to get a visa or take DE citizenship to stay, although either would be a risk mitigation strategy.

 

For the period of negotiations, why wouldn't EFTA not work?

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I tend to think it will be irrelevant anyway and Scotland will still be part of the UK tomorrow. In some ways that will lead to a more interesting situation than if they vote for independence. The Westminster government have committed to some form of DevoMax and apparently politicians in Wales are already gearing up to demand parity with Scotland. There's a few voices to be heard in the English regions as well, the Yorkshire nationalists are few in number 8and nobody takes them seriously) but I know a lot of people in Yorkshire who would prefer more decisions to be taken locally.

 

Personally I think that it would be no bad thing if the UK were to move closer to say, the German model. It would be ironic if a "no" vote in Scotland led to a more federal system of government in the UK as a whole.

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the German model.

 

The German model is IMHO a waste of time & resources. You have 16 "Ministerpräsidents" each of whom think they lead Germany.

 

The federal system bring lots of useless beaurocracy (then the EU on top). From my circle - if you hold an instructor's license for gliding you can only operate in the federal state where you live - although the training & the exams are identical! We have hope that the EU/EASA will put a stop to that.

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Agreed the German model is not perfect by a long way and deeply frustrating on many levels, but that doesn't mean that federal models are bad per se. Hopefully any country moving towards such a system would be able to assess the way it works elsewhere and adopt some of the better aspects and adapt or not use the not so good parts.

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Hopefully any country moving towards such a system would be able to assess the way it works elsewhere and adopt some of the better aspects and adapt or not use the not so good parts.

 

Best laugh I've had all week!

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Little addendum to the "renounce UK citizenship" thing (obviously dealt with before, but for the newcomers): The Scottish govt has already clarified it will not force UK citizens to give up their nationality if they apply for Scottish nationality. If there is any block to dual Scottish-UK citizenship, that block will come from Westminster (but they don't negotiate before they're forced to)

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The Westminster government have committed to some form of DevoMax

 

But there are problems - big problems - with this.

 

They can't promise anything, as Devo-Max would be a matter for the UK Parliament, not party leaders.

 

In fact, the Devo-Max rebellion is just beginning:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/18/tory-minister-claire-perry-rebellion-scottish-funding

 

In any case, if it's David "No top-down re-organisation of the National Health Service" Cameron making pleges, or Nick "No increases in tuition fees" Clegg, who believes them anyway?

 

As Steve Bell said yesterday...

 

post-37929-14110465531351.jpg

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The German model is IMHO a waste of time & resources. You have 16 "Ministerpräsidents" each of whom think they lead Germany.

 

Not really. Big states have 6 representatives in Bundesrat. The idea of double majority is that people living close to each other tend to interact more and have similar views. Scotland has 5 million people living together, England has 50 million people living together. Without Bundesrat you have English people making decisions which affect Scotland because they are a minority. How can this be fair?

 

 

The federal system bring lots of useless beaurocracy (then the EU on top). From my circle - if you hold an instructor's license for gliding you can only operate in the federal state where you live - although the training & the exams are identical! We have hope that the EU/EASA will put a stop to that.

 

Democracy is the worst system except all the others. Yep, in the World Empire you will have only one passport and one license valid everywhere. But that probably is the only advantage of living in a World Empire.

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Little addendum to the "renounce UK citizenship" thing (obviously dealt with before, but for the newcomers): The Scottish govt has already clarified it will not force UK citizens to give up their nationality if they apply for Scottish nationality. If there is any block to dual Scottish-UK citizenship, that block will come from Westminster (but they don't negotiate before they're forced to)

 

I don't understand this issue: AFAIK UK allows dual citizenship as for now. Naturalised citizens are not required to cancel their previous citizenship. They also can't take away citizenship from anybody just because they have got another passport (Chinese or American). There is no issue: new Scottish citizens will also be UK citizens.

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But there are problems - big problems - with this.

 

They can't promise anything, as Devo-Max would be a matter for the UK Parliament, not party leaders.

 

You're right, Keefy. The offer didn't come from the UK government, but from the party leaders. 2/3rds of course are in the government, but had it come from the UK Government it would've been a serious breach of election rules.

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I don't understand this issue: AFAIK UK allows dual citizenship as for now. Naturalised citizens are not required to cancel their previous citizenship. They also can't take away citizenship from anybody just because they have got another passport (Chinese or American). There is no issue: new Scottish citizens will also be UK citizens.

 

But that only applies for current British passport holders and their children. After that, there would be no right to "British" passports.

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I personally don't see why people living in England would be so bothered by Scottish independence. It's not like there wouldn't be trade and Freedom of Movement between the two countries (heck, UK citizens have Freedom of Movement to the UAE), plus Scotland is less wealthy than England and receives some transfer income. In the case of Spain, the Basque Country and Catalonia are wealthier than the rest of the country and comprise a greater share of the country's population than Scotland does of the UK.

 

That said, I expect a "No" vote.

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Cameron: With independence, Scotland would turn into a third world country.

Scots: Well, not sure if it'll be that much better immediately

 

and er.. Conquistador: Scottish actual GDP is higher than England's (and those are actual numbers, based on current situation)

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Hm, I´ve just read that a turnout of 97% was expected. If true (seems VERY high, to be honest, what with holidays, illnesses, work ) that´s pretty amazing for any kind of voluntary political statement. Scotland must be an amazing place to be right now ( not so sure about tomorrow morning when the results are declared! )

 

I wish it would be a clear cut statement either way...anything around the 50-50 mark is so indecisive, unclear and tough : considering the possible historic implications.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29238890

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