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Guantanamo Bay detention camp

192 posts in this topic

 

So the issue isn't really Guantanamo, it's US foreign policy. I thought so.

Oh! You've actually got a 'Policy' now have you? :rolleyes:

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Oi! Go and start a new thread on foreign flippin policy if you want one!

Don't let Jules squirm out of this one, just cos someone brings up foreign policy in post #98 :P

I'm enjoying watching him trying to defend the indefensible :P

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Topsy, stop making posts I agree with, I'm getting nervous about my mental health.

 

Simple point is, Guantanamo is the most naively self-defeating move the US has made for years, and it's done a few. Moral high ground out of the window, behave exactly like those you seek to destroy, albeit with better lawyers & press relations, bigger words and an organised and well equipped military.

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So the issue isn't really Guantanamo, it's US foreign policy. I thought so.

inasmuch as the illegal detention and possible torture of foreign nationals by the USA has major diplomatic implications not least for the democratic allies of the USA that see this as a matter of fundamental human rights.

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None of the above thanks very much.

Durn. The Right to Shut Up on internet forums should be held inviolable, but is too frequently ignored. Not you personally, though.

 

 

Just interested in how you define 'activism'?

Whispered in the gf's ear late at night, right before we get active. 'T'aint no'ther way.

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No, Jules - the issue is Guantanamo and the detention for years on end of *possibly* innocent people without charge.

Thanks for keeping things on track, though my post and the subsequent responses would lead me to believe that people have a much deeper problem with the United States and issues like Guantanamo are just the tip of the iceberg of anti-American resentment.

 

Oh! You've actually got a 'Policy' now have you?

I don't know, you tell me. Either we're retarded hicks who wouldn't be able to find Afghanistan on a map if we wanted to, or we're scheming neo-conservatives hellbent at world domination. What gives?

 

I'm enjoying watching him trying to defend the indefensible

I'm not squirming out of anything. On the contrary, I've enjoyed reading all the international relations experts on the board lecture me about Guantanamo while clearly showing not to have any knowledge of history or politics beyond what's taught in elementary school. It's either that, or ideological opposition to the United States. I tend to think that it's the latter.

 

Simple point is, Guantanamo is the most naively self-defeating move the US has made for years, and it's done a few.

You know what? I thought that the escalation and various acts of barbaric Islamic terrorism we have witnessed over the past ten to fifteen years were the most naively self-defeating moves made by anyone ever. Little did I know, that one can always count on the European hoi polloi to not only justify or ignore it, but instead to nitpick about everything the US does (rightly or wrongly).

 

Moral high ground out of the window, behave exactly like those you seek to destroy, albeit with better lawyers & press relations, bigger words and an organised and well equipped military.

Not quite, here's a BBC (i.e. very PC and in general critical of the US) link to a British government dossier on torture in Iraqi prisons. We're not behaving exactly the same, sorry.

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Thanks for keeping things on track, though my post and the subsequent responses would lead me to believe that people have a much deeper problem with the United States and issues like Guantanamo are just the tip of the iceberg of anti-American resentment.

America is resented by many people around the world because it is so in your face dominant. As such, it has a responsibility to use that dominance to good effect. It has chosen to use it for human rights violations on a grand scale. Is it surprising then that it gets criticised for doing so.

 

 

On the contrary, I've enjoyed reading all the international relations experts on the board lecture me about Guantanamo while clearly showing not to have any knowledge of history or politics beyond what's taught in elementary school.

How do you hustify an accusation like that? Several critics on this thread have shown themselves to be wellversed in history. Spüeaking for myself, my knowledge of the Afghan conflict is bourne of first hand experience. Where does yours come from?

 

 

You know what? I thought that the escalation and various acts of barbaric Islamic terrorism we have witnessed over the past ten to fifteen years were the most naively self-defeating moves made by anyone ever. Little did I know, that one can always count on the European hoi polloi to not only justify or ignore it, but instead to nitpick about everything the US does (rightly or wrongly).

I am personally opposed to terrorism of all kinds. But it is also not hard to see the effect of the manoevering of world powers in Afghanistan, Israel, India/Pakistan, the Southern Russian republics and even Indonesia will eventually generate resentment and then aggression and finally the seeds of terrorism. All this was made substantially worse by the end of the Cold War and the need for the Pentagon to have a new enemy. US cannot pretend that it is at least partly responsible for much of the terrorism it now opposes.

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On the contrary, I've enjoyed reading all the international relations experts on the board lecture me about Guantanamo while clearly showing not to have any knowledge of history or politics beyond what's taught in elementary school. It's either that, or ideological opposition to the United States. I tend to think that it's the latter.

Jules, what it must be like to have your superior insight, I can only imagine. :rolleyes:

And there was me, thinking all along that the following list - all of whom have criticised the conditions and/or detention of prisoners without charge at Guantanamo - had a little more than elementary school understanding:

* Human Rights Watch

* International Committee of the Red Cross

* Amnesty International

* Senior British judges, including Lord Steyn - "As a lawyer brought up to admire the ideals of American democracy and justice, I would have to say that I regard this a monstrous failure of justice.."

* The Commission on Human Rights at the United Nations

* The UK Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith - "The historic tradition of the United States as a beacon of freedom, liberty and of justice deserves the removal of this symbol"

* Various world leaders, including Angela Merkel - "An institution like Guantánamo in its present form cannot and must not exist in the long term. We must find different ways of dealing with prisoners. As far as I'm concerned there's no question about that."

* and even Tony Blair is not keen on his pal's methods, declaring it "an anomaly and sooner or later it's got to be dealt with"

The list goes on and on, in fact.

 

In fact, it would seem you and George W. Bush are almost the only two people left in the world with more than an elementary grasp of history, politics and international relations. What a burden that must be to bear.

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Thanks for keeping things on track, though my post and the subsequent responses would lead me to believe that people have a much deeper problem with the United States and issues like Guantanamo are just the tip of the iceberg of anti-American resentment.

Practically the whole world hates US foreign policy. This is not anti-Americanism, it is opposition to the extremists who are in power there at the moment.

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Oh Jules, Jules. Surprising as it may sound it's possible to criticise the US without hating everything about the US. I'm just disappointed with the attempts to justify the Guantanamo detentions. Sure you can argue about special circumstances, 'things changed on Sept 11th' and so on but what Bushie & crew are doing is blurring the distinction between us and them. We must respect all human life, all humans' right to fair trial through a transparent process. This isn't being a pinko commie, this making a clear distinction between the standards we adhere to, and the standards they adhere to. Good and bad, clear and simple. Sure it's hard to get the required level of evidence to prosecute these scum but wouldn't it be worth it to stop this pointless debate and get the US back to being the world leader we all want it to be?

 

Now back to the football.

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phew, what a relief!

I read that post of HellesAngel's and starting worrying myself about my mental state, since I agreed with all of it... And then came this sentence, and all was right with the world again:

Sure it's hard to get the required level of evidence to prosecute these scum but wouldn't it be worth it to stop this pointless debate and get the US back to being the world leader we all want it to be?

On what basis did you decide, HA, that they are "scum"? I assume the guy who committed suicide the other day who was due for release without charge (without knowing it) was also "scum" was he?

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just feel I want to add, before we become too anti-American, that tho the US has been the primary force behind all these human rights abuses - it recently became apparent that nearly every EU government also had blood on its hands through extraordinary rendition flights.

 

In the end it is not America itself that is wrong - it is the disregard of human rights and standards of justice that we in the west have pioneered for centuries that is at stake.

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In the end it is not America itself that is wrong - it is the disregard of human rights and standards of justice that we in the west have pioneered for centuries that is at stake.

That's true. I don't blame America or Americans for all of this. I long for a time when America can get back to taking the lead as a democratic nation following the higher ground. I would even like to see the United Kingdom try it for once too.

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America is resented by many people around the world because it is so in your face dominant.

America is not as dominant as much as European countries are weak and divided. The consolidation of American hegemony has been the result of a series of "geopolitical" failures of the European Union over the past ten to fifteen years as much as anything else...

1) The lack of a military force capable of efficient intervention (see Kosovo).

2) The lack of a common foreign policy, and more specifically complete diplomatic failure in all major international disputes when involved, including bumbling economic policy (see China).

3) The lack of integration of Eastern European countries who in some cases feel more allegiance to the United States than to the EU.

 

This is not the United States government's fault.

 

How do you hustify an accusation like that? Several critics on this thread have shown themselves to be wellversed in history.

Anyone who draws similarities between POW conditions in WWII and what's going on in Guantanamo does not know what they are talking about, period.

 

Spüeaking for myself, my knowledge of the Afghan conflict is bourne of first hand experience. Where does yours come from?

When has first-hand knowledge of the Afghan conflict been relevant to the thread? We have been discussing things that are in the open.

 

Jules, what it must be like to have your superior insight, I can only imagine.

Superior insight is all relative. In real life, I'm extremely average. On TT, I'm a genius and it isn't even my doing. All you have to do is sit there and let people talk nonsense as they desperately come up with anything in order to sling mud at the United States. Pick it apart, sit back, enjoy.

 

And there was me, thinking all along that the following list - all of whom have criticised the conditions and/or detention of prisoners without charge at Guantanamo - had a little more than elementary school understanding:

My elementary school comment was in reference to historical and political knowledge. Though many people want to get rid of Guantanamo, I can't argue against that, have you noticed that a single one of them actually has a concrete solution or alternative as to what should actually be done?

 

Practically the whole world hates US foreign policy. This is not anti-Americanism, it is opposition to the extremists who are in power there at the moment.

The point is that everyone has always hated US foreign policy since Vietnam and it's been on low heat since then. Every once in a while someone like a George Bush will come along and things will flare up, however in the meantime it just sits there and simmers...

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No, Jules - the issue is Guantanamo and the detention for years on end of *possibly* innocent people without charge.

You are being very selective in your argumentation here Topsy. I mean, you are just jumping on that big bandwagon to have a dig at the US and their actions... I mean, why just mention Guantanamo? Why not look at people in prisons/camps/detention centres and the like all over the world who are being held, having been charged, yet are innocent but do not have access to any decent legal system that may help to prove their innocence? I mean, if you are going to carry on the good fight then try not to single out individual nations just because of what you see, hear and read...

 

The inmates at Guantanamo have it a lot better than a lot of people held in "similar" establishments (I use the word similar very loosely indeed there), who do not have anywhere near the media attention Guantanamo has... These people were considered a risk and are being dealt with accordingly. Should inmates prove that this risk is no longer there, then they will be also dealt with accordingly...

 

It is just another excuse to have a go at them damn merrycans and their "over-arrogance"

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On what basis did you decide, HA, that they are "scum"?

Ah, that's better, the old Topsy back from the brink of reason. No, I'm sure he was a lovely gent, salt of the earth that one, but I'm sure there's a few there you wouldn't want to invite round for tea. IMHO only due legal process and fair trials for all can separate the two. We can then say to all those around the world who aren't naturally inclined to love the West 'see how we treat even those who we might broadly label as scum' and they'll love us for it.

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