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Guantanamo Bay detention camp

192 posts in this topic

 

Guantanamo is the f-ing Club Med compared to some "detention facilities".

Oh OK - other governments do a lot worse (or have done, 50 years ago) and that makes it fine for the USA to do it now? I thought the USA wanted to stand as a beacon of morality for lesser nations?

I must have misunderstood then...

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I don't think that's what JW is saying at all, I think he's saying (and JW correct me if I'm wrong) that the reaction is out of scale with the alleged offences - to which I'd have to agree. That isn't saying it's OK, just that this goes on and has been going on on a much, much worse scale for decades since the GE in 1929 and hardly anybody has ever made a peep in protest - until now.

 

The difference: public perception and conventional wisdom. Had the Iraq war not turned the tide of international sympathy away from the US then do you think people would really care about what's happening at Guantanamo? Probably not.

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Unless they're US special forces, who obviously can't be unlawful combatants in spite of the fact that they're out of uniform. No, they're, erm ...we'll get back to you on that.

I'm glad you brought that up... You tell me what the record is for the treatment of normal US military personnel in captivity? We can leave the Special Forces to the side for one second...

 

First I've heard of it. I understood that a lot of them were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If you were hanging around sightseeing in Afghanistan of all the f*cking places in the world (?!?) anytime between 9/11 and the fall of the Taliban regime, you were either a stupid idiot who deserved an entry on Darwin Awards or some kind of an asshole who wanted to fight a jihad against the Western infidel.

 

The judicial process should've been quicker? Fine, and as DW said, the administration should've done a better job legislating a sensitive situation, I agree, but it ends there.

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If you assume that the remaining detainees are in fact guilty and would be charged *if only* the law allowed it (where's the "yeah, right" smiley), then yes, the reaction is out of scale.

 

But that response ignores the fact that one by one the detainees are being released without charge having been held in barbaric conditions for years on end. Surely anyone with even an ounce of regard for human rights can't help but be outraged by it (regardless of the Iraq issue, which really has nothing to do with it).

 

 

If you were hanging around sightseeing in Afghanistan of all the f*cking places in the world (?!?) anytime after 9/11 you are either a stupid idiot who deserves an entry on Darwin Awards or some kind of an asshole who wants to fight a jihad against the Western infidel.

I can think of a few possibilities other than being stupid or a terrorist. Visiting family or humanitarian aid work are two that spring spontaneously to mind without even too much exertion of the brain.

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If you were hanging around sightseeing in Afghanistan of all the f*cking places in the world (?!?) anytime after 9/11 you are either a stupid idiot who deserves an entry on Darwin Awards or some kind of an asshole who wants to fight a jihad against the Western infidel.

Right. All men in Afghanistan between the ages of 15-65 should have hopped in their BMW's and got the hell out on September 12.

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But that response ignores the fact that one by one the detainees are being released without charge

By the same authorities you are criticizing, oder?

 

I can think of a few possibilities other than being stupid or a terrorist. Visiting family or humanitarian aid work are two that spring spontaneously to mind without even too much exertion of the brain.

Visiting family? How many Afghans are being held at Guantanamo? Foreigners (including humanitarian workers) that are registered with their respective embassies are usually ordered to leave the country, at least temporarily, if a conflict is about to begin.

 

Right. All men in Afghanistan between the ages of 15-65 should have hopped in their BMW's and got the hell out on September 12.

I'm talking about foreign nationals obviously.

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POWs don't get charged. They never have. You're caught, you're put in prison, you stay there until your nation has issued an armistice. The logic behind this is to ensure that released POWs don't go back and start fighting against their former detainers - pretty understandable by all accounts. But this situation is unprecedented - there is no nation to sign an armistice. This has to be addressed by ammending the rules.

How would changing the rules help in any way? The US has not even abided by the existing rules in bthe first place.

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How many Afghans are being held at Guantanamo? Foreigners (including humanitarian workers) that are registered with their respective embassies are usually ordered to leave the country, at least temporarily, if a conflict is about to begin.

Who knows? I don't think the US government has released a list of who's there and what their nationalities are.

 

I don't want to pick at the details, here, but I think it's definitely within the realm of possibility that there are men being held at Guantanamo who should not be there and who have no recourse because of the way the US has handled the situation.

 

Do you disagree, JW?

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If you were hanging around sightseeing in Afghanistan of all the f*cking places in the world (?!?) anytime between 9/11 and the fall of the Taliban regime, you were either a stupid idiot who deserved an entry on Darwin Awards or some kind of an asshole who wanted to fight a jihad against the Western infidel.

You *really* need to see the Road to Guantanamo JW

 

 

Visiting family? How many Afghans are being held at Guantanamo? Foreigners (including humanitarian workers) that are registered with their respective embassies are usually ordered to leave the country, at least temporarily, if a conflict is about to begin.

actually the only country that does that as far as I know is the US. Most other countries recognise that wars cause humanitarian crises that *need* humanitarian input. I understand there were European charities and MiddleEastern charities operating inside Afghanistan before, during and after the conflict.

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There is no expectation by any law or international agreement that the detainees be charged ever.

I think you'll find Protocol I, Article 85, Section 4e states:

 

In addition to the grave breaches defined in the preceding paragraphs and in the Conventions, the following shall be regarded as grave breaches of this Protocol, when committed wilfully and in violation of the Conventions or the Protocol: (e) depriving a person protected by the Conventions or referred to in paragraph 2 or this Article of the rights of fair and regular trial.

 

Article 85, Paragraph 2:

 

Acts described as grave breaches in the Conventions are grave breaches of this Protocol if committed against persons in the power of an adverse Party protected by Articles 44, 45 and 73 of this Protocol...

 

Combatant as defined by Article 43:

2. Members of the armed forces of a Party to a conflict (other than medical personnel and chaplains covered by Article 33 of the Third Convention) are combatants, that is to say, they have the right to participate directly in hostilities.

 

Art. 44. Combatants and prisoners of war

 

1. Any combatant, as defined in Article 43, who falls into the power of an adverse Party shall be a prisoner of war.

 

Therefore, in whichever way the US government has twisted the wording to suit its needs, 'enemy combatants' are Prisoners of War and should have the right to a fair and regular trial.

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thank you hams. I was sure what DW was posting was drivvel but I couldn't be arsed doingzthe spadework to prove him wrong.

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and just because the US government says there were arrested on the battlefield, doesn't necessarily make it the case either

 

how will we know who is right until they are charged?

which means you are right and everyone elses opinion does not count? Charged they should be shot

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Wait for it BtC - it's just beginning... we're about to be educated on the American government's translation of the Geneva Convention. ;)

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which means you are right and everyone elses opinion does not count? Charged they should be shot

that doesn't follow. Topsy was only pointing out that without due process nobody can be deemed to be guilty of anything - only alegations exist but none have been proved in a court of law.

 

Seems that even the staunchest allies of the US are now ranged against them over Guantanamo

 

If they play their cards this way much longer the US will become an international pariah ...

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And everyone else will become yawning dinner conversation bores. The horror, the horror.

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for some people it's not boring dinner party conversation...

what would you rather we talk about, then? the latest reality show?

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what would you rather we talk about, then? the latest reality show?

Now that is an idea. Big Brother goes Guantanemo...

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