Not allowed to participate in VHS C1 course

[SteveYoung 5]

First a quick tip to enable the comment box in the forum: In Chrome click on the padlock icon to the left of the URL bar and then click on settings and disable JavaScript for the website. Now you should be able to answer my query. ;-)

My local VHS is running a C1 course and exam from October and I would really like to take part. I got my B2 last year from another VHS near here. Unfortunately the course is BAMF supported and this means, according to the VHS that all participants must have an authorization from Jobcenter, Arbeitsagentur or BAMF. I am a dual British/German national (thank you Brexit!) and a pensioner, so I cannot get authorization from any of those sources. I have offered to pay the full cost to participate but the VHS says that only those approved by BAMF may attend BAMF supported courses. The VHS also say that they cannot run non-BAMF German courses because there is no call for them as the BAMF courses are much cheaper for the participants. So as a new German citizen I cannot improve my German at a VHS because I am a pensioner and not working. This seems like discrimination to me, what do you think? What can I do to bring this to the attention of those responsible for fixing this problem.

[AlexTr 19,735]

Hi Steve, Have you tried a private language provider? Go to Goethe or any other provider (except Berlitz; they don't do proper certificates and testing).

[HH_Sailor 3,624]

None of my local VHS run anything more than B2 - and I've tried 4 of them in a 50km radius.

Have you tried the Job Center or Arbeitsagentur for help?
Maybe there's an opening there.

Otherwise going to the VHS manager shortly before they start the course and see if they have space left.
Surely your money will be better than no money (empty seat at the table)?

Good luck!

[SteveYoung 5]

HH_Sailor wrote: "None of my local VHS run anything more than B2 - and I've tried 4 of them in a 50km radius."

Exactly, and so when one of the local (50km radius) VHS offered a course this year, starting in October, I was really pleased. Untill I was told that pensioners cannot attend because of BAMF rules.

To AlexTr: The nearest Goethe Institute is in Munich and I cannot travel there three or four times a week. I just think the VHS, and/or BAMF, should not be allowed to discriminate against pensioners.

[snowingagain 5,354]

Is there a maximum age for registering at a Job Centre if you want to work? OK, you might not be eligible for benefits, but curious. I would think that that would be more obvious discrimination. BAMF allow people to attend courses if they are looking to improve their skills even if they are employed with means tested costs.

[SteveYoung 5]

Snowingagain wrote:" BAMF allow people to attend courses if they are looking to improve their skills even if they are employed with means tested costs."
Why shouldn't pensioners also be allowed to improve their skills, especially their German language skills? Should we just lay down and die after reaching 67?

[snowingagain 5,354]

Not sure I understand. I was suggesting that contacting the Job Centre/BAMF could be a workaround. Rather than just asking the VHS. They say they only take people who are registered with Job Centre/Bamf. If BAMF or Job Centre say you are too old, that would be age discrimination? Nothing about laying down and dying.

[SteveYoung 5]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your meaning but registering at at a Job Center after six years being a pensioner is not really a serious proposal, is it? I am a migrant and a pensioner wanting to improve his language skills, why should I have to pretend to be looking for work in order to do that?

BTW I have contacted BAMF directly but had no answer yet.

[snowingagain 5,354]

Well, I just wondered what the rules were. Hope BAMP are amenable.

[warsteiner70 288]

You have mentioned that you are being discriminated for being a pensioner in pretty much every comment in this thread whereas that isn't the case. This would also apply to people in fulltime employment as they also won't be able to get authorisation from BAMF/Job Centre to attend the course either.

The issue is that over the last few years there has been a massive influx of asylum seekers and people fleeing the Ukraine so in order that these people can integrate and get a job the BAMF have created contracts with the VHS for the German language and Integration courses to ensure these people are able to integrate and gain employment as quickly as possible so the government can save money in paying out benefits and gain money in taxes.

If the VHS has a contract with the BAMF for their German courses and they will only allow then there is nothing that the VHS can do about this. This is no different than a German company scheduling English tuition with either a private language teacher or a language school for tuition for a certain amount of people every week over a certain number of weeks. The teacher/language school has entered into a contact with the company and they receive an amount of money for the tuition they give regardless of how many people from the company attend. It doesn't mean they can have other people from outside of the company attend the classes if there are spaces. This is the same with BAMF/VHS.

Other people have already given you other options, such as going to a private language school and this is something that you will probably need to do if improving your German and getting the C1 certificate is important to you. Other options are private 1 to 1 tuition or online tuition if there aren't any private language schools/teachers in your local area.

[tor 17,105]

You could ask if there is a waiting list, and if they have an extra place, you will gladly pay for course.

[SteveYoung 5]

wahrsteinr70 wrote: "Other people have already given you other options, such as going to a private language school and this is something that you will probably need to do if improving your German and getting the C1 certificate is important to you."

As a new German citizen, improving my German language IS important to me. Sorry you don't appove. And as a German taxpayer, yes we pensioners pay tax in Germany too, I would like to be able to use the facilities offered by the VHS to do that. Even if I have to pay the difference myself.

[snowingagain 5,354]

VHS have a huge range of courses for older people. "Akademie für Ältere". They get a lot of criticism for it. But there is not enough demand from older people (like us, I am not much younger than you) for a C1 course.

These new C1 courses (as someone clever here has explained) have only happened with recent influx of fairly educated refugees.

[SteveYoung 5]

wahrsteinr70 wrote: "If the VHS has a contract with the BAMF for their German courses and they will only allow then there is nothing that the VHS can do about this. This is no different than a German company scheduling English tuition with either a private language teacher or a language school for tuition for a certain amount of people every week over a certain number of weeks. The teacher/language school has entered into a contact with the company and they receive an amount of money for the tuition they give regardless of how many people from the company attend. It doesn't mean they can have other people from outside of the company attend the classes if there are spaces. This is the same with BAMF/VHS."

The difference is that it is now uneconomical for the VHS to offer "normal" German language courses because those courses supported by BAMF are cheaper for the participants and then there are then not enough participants for the "normal" courses. This is what my local VHS explained to me, even down to the use of "normal".

I don't understand why BAMF doesn't allow full-paying students to study alongside recent mgirants and refugees, it would be a win-win for everyone: the students would benefit from a more mixed student group and the VHS/BAMF would benefit from the extra money.

[snowingagain 5,354]

I think they will, if they have space. Cannot you not emphasise your desire to use your considerable work experience and expertise,and how it would be enhanced be additional training in C1 German, to enable you to help the community`?

[warsteiner70 288]

SteveYoung wrote: "As a new German citizen, improving my German language IS important to me. Sorry you don't appove. And as a German taxpayer, yes we pensioners pay tax in Germany too, I would like to be able to use the facilities offered by the VHS to do that. Even if I have to pay the difference myself."


Who said anything about not approving? The problem is that you are more concerned about doing the course at the VHS because you are now feeling discriminated against for being a pensioner rather than doing the course itself.

The important thing to you should be completing the C1 certificate and improving your language skills so it should be a case of - I can't do the course at the VHS, which is a bit annoying, but let me find another way of doing the course elsewhere to complete the certificate and improve my language sills. Instead it's - the VHS won't allow me to do the course so I am being discriminated against for being a pensioner and that's not fair so I'm going to complain about this.

Maybe you will be able to take the course at the VHS if you complain, maybe you won't. The way the German (and every country) Public Sector works is that they don't make decisions, answer complaints, emails, etc. very quickly so you could still be waiting for a decision or having having back and forths emails with them for the next 6 months.

Wouldn't it be easier to look elsewhere for a option to complete the C1 course and certification? If you want to have a fight with the BAMF/VHS then that's up to you but maybe you should take a step back and think about what the important outcome of this situation is. Is it taking the course at the VHS or taking the course/completing the certificate "somewhere" so you improve your language skills?

[SteveYoung 5]

warsteiner70 wrote: "The problem is that you are more concerned about doing the course at the VHS because you are now feeling discriminated against for being a pensioner rather than doing the course itself."

Well, thank you for explaining my motives to me. I'm sure you know them better than I do.

Actually I am having a problem with German bureaucracy and I thought I'd share it on this forum to see if anyone else had experienced this or had opinions on it. In my naivety I had assumed that this was what the forum was there for.

As I wrote above, I don't understand why BAMF doesn't allow full-paying students to study alongside recent migrants and refugees, it would be a win-win for everyone: the students would benefit from a more mixed student group and the VHS/BAMF would benefit from the extra money rather than empty seats in the classroom. Surely this is a topic worth discussing here.

Your amateur psycho-analysis and recommendation to "just except it" are not really very helpful.

[tor 17,105]

The easiest and most convenient thing for a German to do when they don't know the answer is to just say 'No', and not, 'I don't know, let me look into it for you.'

The squeaky wheel get the oil.

I think you just need find the right person to ask, and ask them in the right way :)