Do some Germans use synonyms unnecesarily?

[alexunterwegs 549]

I've lived in Germany more than 6 years and consider my German average, but I do struggle with the number of synonyms I hear. Each language uses synonyms to some degree, but I think that the number in German is excessive. 

 

Typical examples are in ARD teletext. A word such as  'erstellen'. I couldn't find any reference to erstellen in my Langenscheidt or Collins dictionaries and had to resort to LEO  

to find out it means 'create'. When I cross-reference to 'create' in Langenscheidt, I find 'schaffen', 'erschaffen' 'verursachen', all words in more frequent use and to my mind, all meaning roughly the same. More words typically found in ARD teletext, 'erlassen', 'erteilen', 'ausstellen', ''ausgeben', all meaning 'to issue'.  Is it really necessary to keep interchanging them? Why do journalists do it?  Doesn't it defeat the purpose of communication? Is it a kind of intellectual snobbery? Or is it designed , maybe unconsciously, to distance speakers from the less articulate, based on the theme, 'knowledge=power'? 

 

I don't find this to be a problem in 'normal conversations' as you might have with your neighbour or in the cafe. Its a problem when people go into 'official speak', from governmental bodies, bureaucracy, and worst of all, when lawyers issue statements (though in the latter case I can partly understand the need for precise language). 

 

I appreciate the same may happen in most languages, but I do recall a campaign back in the UK, for public bodies to simplify their use of English, though I suppose it would need non-native speakers to point out how succesful it has been.  

[Krieg 15,112]

They are not exactly synonyms, they are slightly different words.   Those er/aus/vor/etc change the word a bit.  For example schaffen is to make something  (and mostly to finish it), while erschaffen is to make something out (through a creative or transformative process), or something like that.

 

On top of that, translations 1 to 1 are always complicated.  You take one of those "complicated" words in German and check its English translation and you get three of four words.   Then you take one of those English words and you check the translation back to German and you get again three or four words, the weird thing is that the original German word might not be there because it is not the "best" translation.    The problem with those words is that their meaning is a bit complicated, there are small nuances that make it not so easy to translate and it might depends on the context.

 

We just had a discussion last week about "einstellen" that would usually mean something like to set or to configure, but in that particular sentence meant to terminate.   A native German speaker showed up and didn't really get the issue because as a native speaker he would process all those multiple meanings without realising it and still seeing the word as a single piece.

 

That happens in most languages, I guess.

 

 

P.S., "einstellen" has 21 translations in Google Translate

[snowingagain 5,470]

I love the tube announcements approaching Heathrow.  "Passengers for Terminal 1 should alight here".   I mean, it is obvioius, because what else could it mean?  I do this a lot with my passive German knowledge.  So, I get most of the words, but sometimes not all, and just have to use my intuition to work out the other bits.  

[jeba 4,364]

In school, I was taught not to use the same words twice in a sentence if there was a synonym available. It was regarded poor style and your essay was marked down for it. That was in Bavaria 50 years ago. Later, at University, my boss taught me the exact opposite in scientific writing.

On the other hand, I remember to this day that I had 26 meanings for the English word "sweep" on my vocabulary card (sweeping generalization, sweeping the enemy lines with a machine gun, geese sweeping across...). That may be the other extreme.

[alexunterwegs 549]

The other language I have some fluency in is Dutch, but I'm pretty sure public bodies there try their best to simplify public signs. The example I love to quote is a sign on a Dutch motorway in Noord Brabant, where it simply says, "Watch out, we can jump out any time!" accompanied with a picture of a deer or suchlike.  If that sign was issued by a German authority, it would say something like " Fuhrer(in) von Motorfahrzeugen sind freundlich hingewiesen aufmerksam zu bleiben auf der mogliche Beantrachtigung von Wildtieren auf der Fahrbahn". In some cases German road signs also refer to a Gesetz including paragraph number. My point is that many drivers will only manage to get half way through the German text, before its too late anyway. 

[alexunterwegs 549]

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

They are not exactly synonyms, they are slightly different words.   Those er/aus/vor/etc change the word a bit.  For example schaffen is to make something  (and mostly to finish it), while erschaffen is to make something out (through a creative or transformative process), or something like that.

 

On top of that, translations 1 to 1 are always complicated.  You take one of those "complicated" words in German and check its English translation and you get three of four words.   Then you take one of those English words and you check the translation back to German and you get again three or four words, the weird thing is that the original German word might not be there because it is not the "best" translation.    The problem with those words is that their meaning is a bit complicated, there are small nuances that make it not so easy to translate and it might depends on the context.

 

We just had a discussion last week about "einstellen" that would usually mean something like to set or to configure, but in that particular sentence meant to terminate.   A native German speaker showed up and didn't really get the issue because as a native speaker he would process all those multiple meanings without realising it and still seeing the word as a single piece.

 

That happens in most languages, I guess.

 

 

P.S., "einstellen" has 21 translations in Google Translate

 

'Einstellen' is a very good example, where I've also had loads of problems. In fact any verbs containing 'stellen' are problematical. 

[PandaMunich 16,915]

9 minutes ago, alexunterwegs said:

'Einstellen' is a very good example, where I've also had loads of problems. 

The word "einstellen" is a contranym (in German: Januswort), i.e. "a word with multiple meanings (senses) of which one is the reverse of another": https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-own-opposites

But English has a lot more of those than German.

 

Contranyms:

• in German: https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Verzeichnis:Deutsch/Janusw%C3%B6rter
• in English: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_contranyms

[Gambatte 980]

I've always had problems with the concept of synonyms.

At school when they teach you writing essays, they stress on using synonyms otherwise the text is boring for the readers, seeing too many times the very same words.

But we're also taught that two words have (almost) never the exact same meanings, there's (almost) always some difference. So it's impossible just to interchange words without actually changing the message too.

 

[JN53 360]

4 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

 If that sign was issued by a German authority, it would say something like " Fuhrer(in) von Motorfahrzeugen sind freundlich hingewiesen aufmerksam zu bleiben auf der mogliche Beantrachtigung von Wildtieren auf der Fahrbahn". In some cases German road signs also refer to a Gesetz including paragraph number. My point is that many drivers will only manage to get half way through the German text, before its too late anyway. 

This makes me think of Reinhard May's song Ein Antrag auf Erteilung eines Antragsformulars! 

[LukeSkywalker 7,662]

4 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

The other language I have some fluency in is Dutch, but I'm pretty sure public bodies there try their best to simplify public signs. The example I love to quote is a sign on a Dutch motorway in Noord Brabant, where it simply says, "Watch out, we can jump out any time!" accompanied with a picture of a deer or suchlike.  If that sign was issued by a German authority, it would say something like " Fuhrer(in) von Motorfahrzeugen sind freundlich hingewiesen aufmerksam zu bleiben auf der mogliche Beantrachtigung von Wildtieren auf der Fahrbahn". In some cases German road signs also refer to a Gesetz including paragraph number. My point is that many drivers will only manage to get half way through the German text, before its too late anyway. 

 

Ah, you probably mean this sign. It means „Watch out: we cross over just like that“ Like that too. 

 

[alexunterwegs 549]

59 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

 

Ah, you probably mean this sign. It means „Watch out: we cross over just like that“ Like that too. 

 

 

Thanks for finding it. (The miracles of modern technology!) Illustrates my point perfectly.  It is possible to communicate more easily with the public if you try.  Even non -Dutch speaking drivers stand a fair chance of understanding that. At least more chance than trying to read what some lawyer has drawn up. 

I think the example is typical of many public signs you see in Holland. I think they are pretty aware about good public communication.     

[kiplette 8,804]

5 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

The word "einstellen" is a contranym (in German: Januswort),

 

Aha! So snowingagain or whoever compared it with flammable/inflammable was absolutely on the nail.

 

No wonder it felt counterintuitive.

 

1 hour ago, alexunterwegs said:

I think they are pretty aware about good public communication.

 

Whenever we get another newly incomprehensible bit of BeamterDeutsch through the post I whinge to my children who have to try to wring some meaning out of it about the Plain English campaign in the UK which pushes simple English in official communications to prevent misunderstanding. It makes a lot of sense. I might well understand a truly complex letter in English, but someone with dyslexia, or with English as an additional language, or who just struggles with comprehension is less likely to. Something written in easy English can convey the meaning and be understood by all of us, and therefore be inclusive. 

 

Why this isn't normal here I really don't get.

 

The Bundeswehr has a brilliant easy German section on their website, so it is possible (although it's a bad example because their website sucks generally so the level of German is probably not the main problem for users). 

[HEM 11,165]

4 hours ago, kiplette said:

... the Plain English campaign in the UK which pushes simple English in official communications to prevent misunderstanding.

 

No chance of that here!  Officialdom live to communicate with officials & not normal plebs.

 

Some time ago the local Rathaus send letters to the residents about something & it was all couched in legal stuff that noone could understand.

Not even our next-door neighbour - a retired Berufsschulelehrer für Deutsch.

 

We asked the Rathaus if they could translate into high-German but they said they could not do that!

[jeba 4,364]

14 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

If that sign was issued by a German authority, it would say something like " Fuhrer(in) von Motorfahrzeugen sind freundlich hingewiesen aufmerksam zu bleiben auf der mogliche Beantrachtigung von Wildtieren auf der Fahrbahn"

There is - and it doesn´t have any words on it.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=verkehrszeichen+Wildwechsel

 

[jeba 4,364]

3 hours ago, HEM said:

No chance of that here!  Officialdom live to communicate with officials & not normal plebs.

Official communication has to be able to stand in court. Therefore, I can see why they use legalese German.

[Gambatte 980]

2 hours ago, jeba said:

Official communication has to be able to stand in court. Therefore, I can see why they use legalese German.

Yes, sad but true, I think this nails it.

Our german neighbour, a teacher, was telling me the most difficult exam in the world is fighting with German beamte about taxation.

[karin_brenig 712]

19 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

I've lived in Germany more than 6 years and consider my German average, but I do struggle with the number of synonyms I hear. Each language uses synonyms to some degree, but I think that the number in German is excessive. 

 

Typical examples are in ARD teletext. A word such as  'erstellen'. I couldn't find any reference to erstellen in my Langenscheidt or Collins dictionaries and had to resort to LEO  

to find out it means 'create'. When I cross-reference to 'create' in Langenscheidt, I find 'schaffen', 'erschaffen' 'verursachen', all words in more frequent use and to my mind, all meaning roughly the same. More words typically found in ARD teletext, 'erlassen', 'erteilen', 'ausstellen', ''ausgeben', all meaning 'to issue'.  Is it really necessary to keep interchanging them? Why do journalists do it?  Doesn't it defeat the purpose of communication? Is it a kind of intellectual snobbery? Or is it designed , maybe unconsciously, to distance speakers from the less articulate, based on the theme, 'knowledge=power'? 

 

I don't find this to be a problem in 'normal conversations' as you might have with your neighbour or in the cafe. Its a problem when people go into 'official speak', from governmental bodies, bureaucracy, and worst of all, when lawyers issue statements (though in the latter case I can partly understand the need for precise language). 

 

I appreciate the same may happen in most languages, but I do recall a campaign back in the UK, for public bodies to simplify their use of English, though I suppose it would need non-native speakers to point out how succesful it has been.  

interesting discussion... first of all, I find it remarkable that OP here is quoting ARD Teletext - a tool that I personally last used in 1998.

Then, if memory serves me right, in school and college (both the US and Germany) we were always told to make our writing more interesting by using synonyms. You weren't supposed to use the same word over and over.

 

In my opinion the number of synonyms a person uses in any language shows their degree of command of said language. Better education leads to eloquence. Attempts of  "dumbing down" by simplifying the vocabulary may help to integrate more people - but I personally will continue to be a "show-off" whereever I can

 

"Simple" language doesn't always prevent "misunderstanding".

[Fietsrad 433]

Leichte Sprache, simple language, is used for some documents. Unfamiliar and puzzling if one is used to everyday German.

 

If people take the Umweg/diversion via Leichte Sprache, they might feel they are learning German twice😕

..

Can anyone explain the difference between "verarbeiten" and "bearbeiten"?

[Krieg 15,112]

14 minutes ago, Fietsrad said:

Can anyone explain the difference between "verarbeiten" and "bearbeiten"?

 

When you work on something that already existed you normally use bearbeiten.  When you do a transformative process you use verarbeiten, for example when you convert wood into a table.

[karin_brenig 712]

oh... anything "xxx-arbeiten" is beautiful! There are so many ways to describe an activity by attaching "arbeiten" to it

abarbeiten

aufarbeiten
ausarbeiten

bearbeiten
einarbeiten
erarbeiten

hinarbeiten
herausarbeiten
hocharbeiten
mitarbeiten
nacharbeiten
nachbearbeiten
überarbeiten
umarbeiten
verarbeiten
vorarbeiten
vorbearbeiten
zuarbeiten...

 

there may be more - that's one of the quirks of German: you can legally build your own words.