proof of NOT owning a house

[elle_hd 10]

Hello,

 

Is there a way to get a document in Germany that indicates that I DO NOT own any real estate (house, apartment) in Germany?

 

I co-own an apartment in another country outside Europe & it is being sold. I need to bring proof that I don't own any other real-estate so I don't have to pay taxes on my part.

 

I understand that tax-wise it is better to transfer the sales money from an account in my name abroad to an account in my name in Germany - is there a way to transfer the money not directly from bank to bank? they charge such high fees...

 

Thanks!

 

[PandaMunich 16,704]

25 minutes ago, elle_hd said:

Is there a way to get a document in Germany that indicates that I DO NOT own any real estate (house, apartment) in Germany?

 

I co-own an apartment in another country outside Europe & it is being sold. I need to bring proof that I don't own any other real-estate so I don't have to pay taxes on my part.

No, sorry.

 

26 minutes ago, elle_hd said:

I understand that tax-wise it is better to transfer the sales money from an account in my name abroad to an account in my name in Germany - is there a way to transfer the money not directly from bank to bank? they charge such high fees...

Open a multi-currency account with Wise (formerly TransferWise): https://wise.com/gb/account/

See here for their transfer fees: https://wise.com/de/send-money/

[HEM 11,160]

41 minutes ago, elle_hd said:

Is there a way to get a document in Germany that indicates that I DO NOT own any real estate (house, apartment) in Germany?

 

Its like being asked to prove that doing XYZ  saved your life!

[razorsandroses 431]

15 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Open a multi-currency account with Wise (formerly TransferWise): https://wise.com/gb/account/

See here for their transfer fees: https://wise.com/de/send-money/

 

I'm going to second this comment. Last October, I used Wise to transfer €10.000 from a US bank to my bank in Berlin. It was in my account in less than 5 minutes and the fee was only €60.

[silty1 3,613]

30 minutes ago, razorsandroses said:

I'm going to second this comment. 

 

Am going to third it - adding that my bank only allowed $2500 daily, but the total fees you mention were about the same.  If OP is looking at sending larger 5- or 6-figure amounts, I don't know what Wise can offer.  Anyone? 

[elle_hd 10]

Thanks!

 

Apparently such a document stating that one does not own (other) real estate is possible & expected in the country where the apartment is.

 

The sum to be transferred should be over 100,000 Euros.

 

I just checked wise & they don't have the currency I need

[Fietsrad 413]

Would the document be something like an eidesstatliche Erklaerung? (Sworn statement)

[elle_hd 10]

as far as I understand the document is something given by the government office that registers land/house ownership but the more I think about it the more absurd it sounds - what if I own a house in a third country? I'll just tell the lawyer there's no such thing

 

When I transfer the money to Germany - would anyone (the bank? Finanzamt?) will ask me what the source/purpose of the money is? will I be taxed on it here somehow?

[snowingagain 5,359]

..

[snowingagain 5,359]

19 minutes ago, elle_hd said:

as far as I understand the document is something given by the government office that registers land/house ownership but the more I think about it the more absurd it sounds - what if I own a house in a third country? I'll just tell the lawyer there's no such thing

 

When I transfer the money to Germany - would anyone (the bank? Finanzamt?) will ask me what the source/purpose of the money is? will I be taxed on it here somehow?

So, you are selling a property abroad, and want to know if you need to tell the Finanzamt about it?   

[RedMidge 6,638]

50 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

So, you are selling a property abroad, and want to know if you need to tell the Finanzamt about it?   

Not telling the Finanzamt may not be the brightest idea!!

[snowingagain 5,359]

2 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

Not telling the Finanzamt may not be the brightest idea!!

Yes.  Ask Boris Becker about lying to the tax guys.  Ha.  Though the capital gains tax does not have to be much at all.  Just need to find out what it is.  

[RedMidge 6,638]

2 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Yes.  Ask Boris Becker about lying to the tax guys.  Ha.  Though the capital gains tax does not have to be much at all.  Just need to find out what it is.  

Agree- best to be open and check with experts, tax advisors.

 

[fraufruit 42,196]

2 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Though the capital gains tax does not have to be much at all.  Just need to find out what it is.  

 

Just curious. What if the capital gains tax was paid in the country where the house was sold? Would it have to be paid again in Germany?

[snowingagain 5,359]

14 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Just curious. What if the capital gains tax was paid in the country where the house was sold? Would it have to be paid again in Germany?

Depends. But if property over 10 years, etc. probably nothing here. Less than 10 years (and as suggested no tax elswhere) could be some here the FA might be interested in.

 

[PandaMunich 16,704]

42 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Depends. But if property over 10 years, etc. probably nothing here.

Correct, if more than 10 years have elapsed between the date of the purchase contract and the date of the sale contract.

Or if only used for your own living purposes between the date of the purchase contract and the date of the sale contract.

Or you used it only for your own living purposes in the last 3 years before the sale. For example, it was let until 15.12.2021, you used it yourself between 16.12.2021 and 31.12.2021 and also the whole of 2022 and until you sell it on 25.01.2023 --> you have these 3 years

 

These cases, when the profit is tax-free in Germany (and not even Progressionsvorbehalt is applied on it), are listed in §23 (1) Nr. 1 EStG: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/estg/__23.html

 

42 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Less than 10 years (and as suggested no tax elsewhere) could be some here the FA might be interested in.

Yes, if none of the above exemption clauses from §23 (1) Nr. 1 EStG apply, the profit has to be declared in your German tax return. 

Some double taxation agreements (DTA) have "effectively taxed" clauses, which mean that if the country the real estate is in doesn't tax the profit, then Germany will tax it instead or the DTA has a "tax credit" clause for profit from real estate (which means that the Germans would reduce your German tax on the profit by the foreign tax you paid, which in your case isn't of much help, since didn't pay any foreign tax).
Or there may not be a DTA at all with that country, e.g. there is no DTA between Germany and Brazil, which means that all income from Brazil has to be taxed in Germany, with Germany giving a tax credit for the Brazilian income tax you had already paid on that income.
In these cases, the profit has to be declared in Anlage SO, line 39: https://www.steuerklassen.com/content/anlage_so_2021.pdf

 

And even if that DTA has no such clause, it will have a Progressionsvorbehalt clause around article 23, so the profit from the sale will be subject to Progressionsvorbehalt. To find out what that is, please scroll down to the section "Progressionsvorbehalt" in here.

You will then need to declare it in Anlage AUS, line 36: https://www.steuerklassen.com/content/anlage_aus_2021.pdf

[almafreya 60]

This reminds me, I lived in my UK property from 2011-2015, then let it for 2 years before selling in 2017 for a big profit. I forgot I might have to pay capital gains tax in Germany. I'm not sure if I even checked if I needed to pay capital gains tax in the UK come to think of it. Finanzamt haven't been in contact about it yet.

 

Edit: just checked, and no tax is payable in the UK, probably because for most of my ownership it was my primary residence. Not sure about Germany

[almafreya 60]

Yes it seems I do owe tax on my UK property sale. I bought for the property for 108k in 2011 and lived there until 2016. I let the property from 2016 until 2017 and sold it for 160k in 2017. So I should pay a profit tax of 23k. Lovely.

[snowingagain 5,359]

Your maths seems off.  But kind of puzzled that the idea of paying tax only occured to you 5 years later.

[almafreya 60]

11 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Your maths seems off.  But kind of puzzled that the idea of paying tax only occured to you 5 years later.

 

Yes, I really just never considered the idea that I would pay capital gains tax on the property, because the capital gains tax for the sale in the uk was 0 GBP.

 

Yes, I also paid tax this year from an inheritance I received in 2018. At the time I never thought about it because in the UK, beneficiaries don't pay inheritance tax, the estate does. However that is not the case in Germany.

 

Regarding my maths, that's the number output by WISO Steuer after filling in the forms for 2017, which includes my German income. I think it calcalculates the tax using my income tax rate rather than the capital gains tax rate. It also doesn't realise the property is un the UK and subject to double taxation treaties. I'll give my Steuerberater a call tomorrow I think...