Posted 14 Dec 2022 We are planning on renovating our 7sqm bathroom. Complete tear out and new installation. New toilet, bathtub, shower, sink, furniture, tiles, radiator, plastering walls, ceiling etc. My wife met with one local firm at the house who are going to provide an estimate within 2 weeks, and then a further meeting to discuss design specifics etc. They would coordinate the entire project and they have Handwerker on staff for plumbing, tiling, electrics etc. This sounds ideal as we don't want to coordinate the project ourselves, and we aren't interested in doing any DIY work on something as important as a bathroom. We have been looking at bathrooms online to get an idea of what styles and designs we would like, what types of equipment etc. so when we visit the firm, we have a good idea of what we want. Does anyone have experience with a bathroom renovation? Are estimates from local firms negotiable? I assume we should also get estimates from some other local firms to compare. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 Dec 2022 Getting quotes from several firms is a good idea, however the more quotes you get, the more confusion. If possible, ask around to get recommendations from people you know. Try and have a look at some of the jobs they have done. Good luck. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 On 14/12/2022, 16:08:21, hooperski said: Getting quotes from several firms is a good idea, however the more quotes you get, the more confusion. We just receieved the first. Complete rip-out and install: 21k €. That doesn't include any bathroom furniture. We'll get a 2nd quote to compare and go from there I think. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 2 hours ago, almafreya said: Complete rip-out and install: 21k €. That doesn't include any bathroom furniture. For a 7m2 bathroom? Perhaps you want to revisit how much you dislike DIY! Alternatively, speak with neighbours who know local tradesmen. If you can find one good recommendation for, say, someone who can tile, then you could ask that person for a recommendation for someone to do the other jobs. It sounds as though you are paying an absolute premium for a one-stop shop. Particularly as they aren't providing the bathroom furniture: which by the way, is a potential point of concern ("well, this shower/sink has an unusual fitting, not covered in the original quote" or later on: "well, the fact the jets aren't working in the shower isn't a result of our work, you bought a shoddy product" etc etc) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 Our friends renovated a bathroom of about the same size and paid about €20 k. They had a very large tile shower installed and no bathtub. It is beautiful. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 Can‘t you do the rip-out yourself? What can go wrong here 👻? Turn off the water, get a sledgehammer and let the beast out. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 Rip out is easy enough Luke, but getting the mess outside the house and into a waste disposal site is a bit harder. I don't think the sledgehammer work is going to be the big cost element. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 A sledgehammer alone won't do it. Tiles have to be chiseled and scraped out either by hand or that machine that woke me up at 8:00 this morning. Yes, disposal is pretty labor intensive. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 Can you tile over previous tiles or is there some reason why that's a bad plan? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Dec 2022 Can I tile over old tiles? The answer to this is simple: yes, but why would you? Tiling on top of old tiles means that any problems with the originals, such as becoming loose, will still be an issue with the new layer, while the extra thickness can also make it more difficult to accurately install fixtures and fittings. People worry about removing plaster from the wall when stripping old tiles, but re-skimming the plaster as a preparation for the new layer is part and parcel of achieving a good finish. BJD Building & Roofing say: “You can tile over tiles, with the right preparation, but I would never do this—the proper way is to strip right back to original wall finish. Don’t worry if you do pull a bit of plaster when stripping the tiles, as it’s easy enough to replace. Tiling over tiles can make it awkward, i.e. extra thickness when tiling around shower fittings. For the sake of a few hours work, I would take them off.” 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Dec 2022 In my house they've tiled over old tiles, I assume because they did it before they sold and wanted to save money. You can see it in places where you have an edge because it's double thickness. So far it's not causing any problems. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Dec 2022 We tore out the tiles in an old apartment in stuttgart with a super Hilti schlaghammer from a colleague. Super tool, filthy work, but rewarding if you like getting your hands dirty. Warn the neighbors! Disposal in the nearest Deponie. Added bonus, we unexpectedly found decent terrazzo under the boring tiles. But terrazzo requires special polishing tools, more cool tools, one like a mini zamboni. Recommended to distribute ear plugs and alcohol to your neighbours for that one. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Dec 2022 @OP you will save millions by being your own architect. You need a man with a van. And préférably other tools. Scour the local ads ? Odd jobbers... yes it will be more hassle. But you also lose an element of control wirh the one off package. You tend to get what are given unless you are a hard nosed negotiator. Which may not cut it either. You need to have your furniture and fixtures lined up before the tiling. Or you may find yourself cutting into the tilework afterwards. Which is to be avoided. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Dec 2022 On 12/14/2022, 6:58:56, almafreya said: we aren't interested in doing any DIY work on something as important as a bathroom. Go with your gut on this one. Contractors don't include fixture costs because they vary with your personal taste and budget. Some might include a tile cost range, but tub, toilet, vanity, mirrors, lighting, faucets, etc are extra. Each of these have dimensions so be absolutely clear what will fit after the plumbing and electrical are in place. If you buy a sink that's larger than allowed, it's your problem. When I did my renovation, we discussed dimensions, I bought approved fixtures and they built to fit. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 19 Dec 2022 On 16/12/2022, 11:04:32, dstanners said: For a 7m2 bathroom? Perhaps you want to revisit how much you dislike DIY! Alternatively, speak with neighbours who know local tradesmen. If you can find one good recommendation for, say, someone who can tile, then you could ask that person for a recommendation for someone to do the other jobs. It sounds as though you are paying an absolute premium for a one-stop shop. Particularly as they aren't providing the bathroom furniture: which by the way, is a potential point of concern ("well, this shower/sink has an unusual fitting, not covered in the original quote" or later on: "well, the fact the jets aren't working in the shower isn't a result of our work, you bought a shoddy product" etc etc) When I say bathroom furniture, I mean things like cupboards. The quote includes bath, shower, WC, sink, radiator. I agree we are paying a premium for a one-stop shop. Someone to coordinate the project and handle all the different Handwerker etc. I'm happy to pay a bit more than having to deal with different trades myself. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 19 Dec 2022 On 16/12/2022, 11:37:10, fraufruit said: Our friends renovated a bathroom of about the same size and paid about €20 k. They had a very large tile shower installed and no bathtub. It is beautiful. Yeah. From what I see around the internet, this price isn't abnormal. On 16/12/2022, 12:27:14, LukeSkywalker said: Can‘t you do the rip-out yourself? What can go wrong here 👻? Turn off the water, get a sledgehammer and let the beast out. On 16/12/2022, 14:24:09, pappnase said: Rip out is easy enough Luke, but getting the mess outside the house and into a waste disposal site is a bit harder. I don't think the sledgehammer work is going to be the big cost element. On 16/12/2022, 14:28:50, fraufruit said: A sledgehammer alone won't do it. Tiles have to be chiseled and scraped out either by hand or that machine that woke me up at 8:00 this morning. Yes, disposal is pretty labor intensive. We'll do the rip out ourselves instead of paying 1300 €. It is an old farmhouse so we have plenty of space to store the waste until we arrange for disposal. The bathtub can be used by our horses (for drinking water, not for bathing) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 19 Dec 2022 Here is the specifics of the quote: Quote Waschtisch-Anlage 650mm, bestehend aus: - Waschtisch Villeroy & Boch Architectura 65x47cm weiss - Kristallspiegel 80x60cm rechteckig - Einh.Waschtischbatt.Eurostyle Grohe - Handtuchhalter 2-armig Loft 574 € Wand-WC-Anlage, bestehend aus: - Wand-Tiefspül-WC weiss Villeroy & Boch Architectura - WC-Sitz weiss mit Softclosing - UP-Spülkasten Geberit - Betätigungsplatte Geberit weiss - Schallschutzset - Papierhalter Loft verchromt 1.008 € Duschwannen-Anlage best. aus: - Dusche Stahl Kaldewei 90x90x2.5cm - Montagerahmen für Duschwanne - Dichtband für Duschwanne - Ablauf Funktionseinheit Tempoplex 90mm - Abdeckhaube Tempoplex chrom - Sieb f.Tempoplex-/Plus Ablaufgarnitur - AP-Thermostatbatterie Grohe - Brausegarnitur 90cm Grohe 993 € Duschabtrennung best. aus: - Favorit Nova Eckeinstieg, 4-teilig bis 90x90cm Echtglas klar, Profil Alu silber-matt 1.139 € Badewannen Anlage best. aus: - Badewanne Kaldewei Stahl Saniform 180x80cm - Fussgestell Allround - Wannenleisten Mepa Badewanne - Wannendichtband 3.0m - Ab-/Überlaufgarnitur Multiplex DN 40/50 - Farbset f. Multiplex Visign M5 - Einhand-AP-Armatur Eurostyle Grohe - Handbrause, Halter und Schlauch 1.237 € Heizkörper best. aus: - Bad-Heizkörper Line weiss 600x1775mm inkl. Befest. - Heimeier Multilux Ventil Garnitur - Klemmverschraubung 513 € Wand- und Bodenfliesenarbeiten bis 12,5m² inkl. folgenden Materialien: - Wandfliese 30x60 - Bodenfliese 30x60 - Fliesenkleber - Fugenschlemme - Haftgrund - dauerelastische Silikonfugen - Abschlussschienen - Steine, Mörtel usw. - Bauplatten 8.181 € Estrich inkl. Dämmung und Kleinmaterial bis 12,5m² 448,00 € Rohrleitungen und Zubehör Demontage vom Bad bis 12,5m² inkl. Schuttentsorgung 1.295 € Abfluss-, Wasser und Heizungsleitung inkl. Isolierung, Befestigungsmaterial usw. bis 12,5m² liefern und montieren 1.385 € Fußbodenerwärmung bis 12,5m² inkl. UP-Box Danfoss 549,96 € Deckenarbeiten bis 12,5m² - Gipskarton - Unterkonstruktion - Befestigungsmaterial - Bohrung für Einbauspot 889,00 € Deckenarbeiten Paneele bis 12,5m² - Feuchtraumpanelle - Abschlussprofil - Unterkonstruktion - Befestigungsmaterial - Bohrung für Einbauspot 1.129,00 - Zimmertür inkl. Zarge bis 100cm - WC Drückergarnitur edelstahl - Befestigungsmaterial 599 € Einrichtungsgegenstände 4.326,43 € Fliesen 8.629,69 € Rohrleitungen und Zubehör 3.229,96 € Sonstige Arbeiten 1.488,00 € Netto-Summe 17.674,08 € 19,00 % USt. 3.358,08 € Gesamt-Betrag 21.032,16 € We will be removing the following items from the quote: - Demontage vom Bad, Fußbodenerwärmung, Deckenarbeiten Paneele We haven't spoken with the project coordinator since receiving this, however we are hoping because the quote includes items "bis 12m²", the final price will actually be a bit lower considering our bathroom is only 7m². 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 19 Dec 2022 Is the price verbindlich / fixed? Oftentimes people find themselves paying much more than expected for renovation/building work. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 19 Dec 2022 3 minutes ago, Fietsrad said: Is the price verbindlich / fixed? Oftentimes people find themselves paying much more than expected for renovation/building work. "Der Angebot/Kostenvoranschlagspreis ist unverbindlich und kein Festpreis! Die Abrechnung erfolgt nach unserseits tatsächlich erbrachten Leistungen einschließlich Zeit- und Materialaufwand." Something I'll consider when we visit next and discuss the finer details of the offer. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 19 Dec 2022 The tiles come to 8.181 € in your quote there is probably about 1000 euro of materials tops, you should be doing that part yourelf, or hire someone else. I did all the tiling in my house, never did it before just watched loads of youtube videos. I bought all high quality tiles from a dedicated shop, not bauhaus shit. They lent me a high quality cutting machine for free and made holes in the tiles which went over the pipes for free. It helps if you have a 2nd bathroom so you don't have to rush. And before you buy the tiles measure everything and buy the tile size that fit best. But you have to work slow, and start in the right place and as I said the most important thing is work slow(no nagging wives mine did my head in). 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
