Accountability in HR meetings

[DaringD 106]

I'm after some advice here before an event. 

 

I've got an upcoming HR meeting where I have good reason to believe they are going to try and threaten me with termination. 

 

For context, the last time I was in a meeting with them they made implicit threats that if I took any more sick time that there would be "consequences". Since then I have resisted taking any time off through two severe bouts of insomnia and as a result I'm run down and sick, finally I have had to take time off (5 days) and, shocker, I have been called for a meeting. 

 

Do I have any right to be able to protect myself in terms of what is said in that meeting? I know I can't record without everyone consenting, recording includes taking a transcript, which seems to mean that they can say pretty much anything and I can't prove it. Is there a right to be able to recored these meetings as an employee in some way? I can take a witness, but that still leaves it as my (our) word against theirs. It also puts that witness in a very awkward position if I need them to confirm that something was done incorrectly. 

 

As with everything, it seems that the odds are stacked against the employee. I'm really exhausted trying to find ways to make them accountable for acting like mobsters. But I have no tools, the laws designed to stop those in power from abusing it are exactly the laws enabling my employer to do shady shit. 

 

So before I go into this thing without a clue and make a total bollocks of it, what are my best options? 

[tor 16,880]

Do you have a betriebsrat representative? 

[fraufruit 41,946]

Do you have a doctor's note stating that you were sick?

[DaringD 106]

We don't have a betreibsrat, we have a group of "Trusted people" which serve the same purpodeand yes I do have a doctor's note. I have a doctor's note and copies of those doctor's notes for every absence I've ever had, thanks to my German wife and her "just in case" attitude. I was hoping for something more concrete than having to rely on someone being able to accurately recall what was said. I'd also like to know where the line between taking a transcript and taking notes is, for instance can I make a note of specific things that were said and by whom as they happen? 

 

The problem is that the last legal advice I got was that any employer can terminate any employee for any reason, they don't have to give a reason and often, if they are on shakey ground, they won't.  It's then down to that employee to fight it and for a court to determine the reason for the termination from the available evidence. 

 

I'm just trying to find a way I can capture as much infotlrmation/evidence as possible to make proving what they are doing (and therefore strengthening any kind of unfair dismissal challange) that much easier. 

 

I was hoping there would be some way to legitimately refuse to attend a meeting unless they are willing to allow it to be recorded in one way or another. I'm sure I'm not the first person to have these kinds of concerns. 

[optimista 5,840]

IANAL but you do have to be fit for the job. If that changes they can terminate the contract. Happened to a colleague.

For your own sanity when they try to gaslight you later, I would record the conversation. Without consent. You will not be able to divulge it or use it as proof, of course. That would cause huge trouble. It would just be for the good of your own mental health. Which is hugely important.

 

I have done this and have no regrets. You must just keep it to yourself. Obviously.

 

Good luck. And only fight those battles you can win.

[travelerworker 116]

As we all know, HR is there to protect the company.

Nothing else.

You can record them to better recall what was said, later, if needed. 

Just leaving the phone over the table and imply, with a gesture and the mere positioning of it, that you are recording them will make them consider what they say.

Also don't feel pressured to answer or sign anything. Take your time. Just say: I can't answer that now. Same for any paper you are presented. Even if this is not true just say: before answering that I need to check with my lawyer. 

If I were you I'd take a copy of all my doctor notes and list of days off as on the HR system.

There is, also, a chance that higher management is not aware of that situation. You may have a chance involving them. I wouldn't be surprise that the CEO has no idea about that bully techniques of some HR/middle manager. Pull them in if needed.

Good luck

 

[sluzup 249]

I am not a lawyer but did used to be on the Betriebsrat at work.  

It seems to be common practice, if you are off sick for more than 30 days in a year, to call you in for a discussion about it. In our company, the discussion might focus on what the company can do to help you.  I had a colleague suffering from stress and they offered a free counselling service but also offered to let them go part time.   In our company it is also automatic, so my husband had a knee operation that meant he had 30 days off in one go and he got called in.  It won't necessarily be them trying to get rid of you, but of course it might.  Some further info here.  

 

https://www.igmetall.de/service/ratgeber/kuendigung-aufgrund-und-waehrend-krankheit#:~:text=Kann%20ich%20gek%C3%BCndigt%20werden%2C%20weil,drei%20Punkte%20%C3%BCberpr%C3%BCfen%20die%20Arbeitsgerichte.

[optimista 5,840]

2 hours ago, travelerworker said:

Just leaving the phone over the table and imply, with a gesture and the mere positioning of it, that you are recording them...

 

No. If you do go this route, maximum discretion is in order.

[toBnruG 1,152]

I used to work in a company where somebody took a lot of sick leave and, as a result, we were all informed about the company policy (might have been law) regarding sick leave.

It went something like this... after 30 days cumulative sick leave in 1 calendar year you will be invited to a discussion with HR and your line manager to see if there is a specific reason for the frequent sickness which the company can help to address. You do not have to attend this meeting.

No idea if this is an employment law in Germany but it might be, perhaps somebody who knows better will reply.

Anyway, at least in that company it seemed like the rules were stacked in the employee's favour and that there's really nothing the company can say against you for being sick.

[scook17 247]

4 hours ago, optimista said:

For your own sanity when they try to gaslight you later, I would record the conversation. Without consent. You will not be able to divulge it or use it as proof, of course. That would cause huge trouble.

 

Can someone elaborate on this topic. Covertly recording a meeting renders it inadmissible in law? Only German employment law? What's the source of the law surrounding this?

Would covertly recording a work colleague behaving in a way which demonstrates bullying or otherwise poor behaviour not be admissable?

As I understand it, Teams meetings for example have a recording function and/or a transcript of such a meeting.

 

One a separate question for the poster, or someone who knows. Usually you would invite a member of the union to be someone who would be there to be an independent witness and to ensure the employer did not say something which in fact was not representative of German labour law as 'truth'. Such a person (a shop steward) is protected against being fired or other problems when they represent employees. I wonder if you are a member of a union in the field in which you work (IG Metal for example, and others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trade_unions_in_Germany) they could also provide someone to attend such a meeting?

[travelerworker 116]

3 hours ago, optimista said:

 

No. If you do go this route, maximum discretion is in order.

disagree

if they think you are doing it they will be more cautious

I'd leave the phone say and suggest Im recording, in a subtle way

[jeba 4,347]

7 hours ago, optimista said:

Without consent.

Why not ask for consent? What´s the point of having a recording which you can´t use, and which could even land you in hot legal water if it comes to light?

 

2 hours ago, scook17 said:

covertly recording a meeting renders it inadmissible in law?

 

Quote

Violation of the confidentiality of the word is a misdemeanour in Germany under section 201(1) and (2) of the Criminal Code, punishable by imprisonment of up to three years or a fine.

deepl-translation from: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verletzung_der_Vertraulichkeit_des_Wortes

 

[scook17 247]

1 hour ago, jeba said:

Why not ask for consent? What´s the point of having a recording which you can´t use, and which could even land you in hot legal water if it comes to light?

 

Quote

Violation of the confidentiality of the word is a misdemeanour in Germany under section 201(1) and (2) of the Criminal Code, punishable by imprisonment of up to three years or a fine.

deepl-translation from: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verletzung_der_Vertraulichkeit_des_Wortes

 

 

Interesting, so basically if you'd like to spend time in prison, covertly record someone. However, placing a phone/recording device and explicitly saying this conversation is recorded is ok. 

 

I guess this differentiates between spoken conversations and that which is intended to be recorded. Prevents all those phone hacking and publication of private conversations that happened a while back (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_International_phone_hacking_scandal) which amongst other things highlighted hacking of phone calls by a previous prime minister of the UK (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/11/uk.phone.hacking.scandal/index.html).

 

Also prevents someone bugging the coffee room to listen into the latest company gossip. Some examples are obvious when you see how it's abused.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/27/germany.supermarkets

 

I did wonder why some security camera software had an option to turn on/off voice recording. Must not be recording what those dam burglars are talking about as they are breaking in I suppose.

 

I do wonder about devices such as Amazon Echo or various assistants you can't seem to disable. Do such devices actually have the processing power to really identify key worlds 'Alexa...'? I am deeply suspicious they send everything to the mothership, so represent 24/7 recording microphones. Of course I trust the 'do no evil' companies to delete that data, or not to record it. However, acts like the USA Patriot act (https://www.aclu.org/other/surveillance-under-usapatriot-act) allow basically anyone to obtain such data. So it's entirely clear why the EU wants to ensure such data remains with EU jurisdiction. 

[tor 16,880]

10 minutes ago, scook17 said:

 

 However, placing a phone/recording device and explicitly saying this conversation is recorded is ok. 

 

 

 

I don't think that works either 

[optimista 5,840]

They will likely not agree to the conversation being recorded if you ask. I had people refuse.

 

If they suspect you are recording because you hint it is the case, they will ask you to switch your phone off. Not difficult. 

 

Only way to do it is underhand and sneaky. But so be it. You should never divulge the recording. I repeat, it is for you, for your sanity. Then you will give the scheissters no quarter. You cave when you are not sure anymore. The art of gaslighting.

[jeba 4,347]

2 hours ago, optimista said:

They will likely not agree to the conversation being recorded if you ask. I had people refuse.

Then you can still refuse to engage with them.

[jeba 4,347]

3 hours ago, scook17 said:

 

Interesting, so basically if you'd like to spend time in prison, covertly record someone. However, placing a phone/recording device and explicitly saying this conversation is recorded is ok.

Of course. There are many companies which tell you at the beginning of a phone call that it will be recorded and to terminate the call if you don't like it. E.g. my broker.

[HH_Sailor 3,532]

Well how about this:

Sneaky recording of the conversation, but

visibly and obviously take notes.

 

Then at home, with a German speaker you trust, write a protocol of the conversation using your notes and the tape

 

Send HR a copy of the protocol for their confirmation.

[europaeuropa 120]

Obviously, recording without permission is not a great idea.

 

But... You could say it like this: My phone is recording audio for minutes taking purposes. If you object to the recording, you can decide to terminate the meeting and leave the room.

 

If they walk out, you've saved yourself a meeting with them. If they terminate and reschedule, just keep doing the same thing again.

[catjones 1,658]

On 05/12/2022, 10:48:48, DaringD said:

I'm really exhausted trying to find ways to make them accountable for acting like mobsters.

forget recordings.  Why would you want to continue working fora company of mobsters?