new dual citizenship law

[Conservator 12]

https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/date-set-bundestag-debate-dual-german-citizenship

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20221201/german-parliament-to-hold-urgent-debate-on-citizenship/

 

According to these articles Dual citizenship law is changing and allowing non EU nationals to have 2 or more citizenship together with German one

 

Has anyone information if German citizens living abroad and acquiring new citizenship will no longer be required to obtain Beibehaltungsgenehmigung?  

[pappnase 2,654]

It hasn't happened yet, so wait and see.

Note though that the dual citizenship rules of the other country will also govern this so it might not change for all Germans abroad even if Germany does allow it.

[Conservator 12]

is there any news regarding this ?  it was supposed to happen in December

[kaffeemitmilch 1,295]

I read somewhere the draft law will be presented to the Bundestag this is next month, with the law expected to change in summer.

[Marone 9]

@kaffeemitmilch that's very interesting about timing! I was surprised how quickly they agreed on the new Bürgergeld law, but who knows, anything could happen.

 

But if it does happen, I would expect processing times to go up in many places. Side discussion that started in another thread:

23 hours ago, murphaph said:

The current system is very poor in most places being chronically understaffed and with even straightforward EU applications taking 2 years to process in my LK (and in many others it's not much better). Without phasing in the changes the system will utterly collapse. ... There are so many Turks alone just waiting for this change. The law needs changing but they need to consider the realities. It helps nobody in practical terms if there's a free for all and average processing times go from 2 years to 10 years.

18 hours ago, Fietsrad said:

If the law was relaxed to allow more people to get citizenship, the conditions could be relaxed too, otherwise the shortage of staff would become even more troublesome.

17 hours ago, TurMech said:

On 1/7/2023, 11:15:10, Marone said:

I’m getting the impression there would be huge run of Turkish citizens on the Einbürgerungsämter.

There will be a huge flow. In a seminar i attended, it was presented that, only 2.9% of the citizenship potential among Turkish citizens have been consumed till now.

 

With the new law, expecting 3 to 5 years of waiting time is logical.

14 hours ago, Marone said:

2.9% ... that's insane, but I can't say I'm surprised after seeing the number of US citizens and how the policy change led to a 7x spike.

 

The question is if anyone sees a problem with the system collapsing or wait times going up more, and I'm honestly not sure. I could see them making some changes, but maybe not enough to keep up with demand.

 

The status quo: 1-2 year wait. "We're not going to look at your application until at least a year in." That's normal.

Extraneous circumstances: Syrian refugees have been here for 7-8 years, there's a new law people have to study now, or just a gegenwärtige Coronasituation? "We're booked out for the next year or two. It is what it is. Temporarily, for the foreseeable future, our Kreis is not accepting any new applications." It seems that this is also within reason and fairly common practice.

 

In some places, they've had all of 2023 booked as of 2022. Saarbrücken was booked out for 2022 and 2023 by June of 2022. Gelsenkirchen stopped offering (mandatory?) appointments in the fall of 2022 when all of 2023 was booked. Berlin announced they'll centralize the process, and they have a waitlist for 2024 (which is filling up now), since all of 2023 is booked out in Pankow, Spandau, Marzahn-Hellersdorf and Reinickendorf. They're planning to triple throughput in 2024 in order to meet the demand they've been seeing in the past, and to get there, throughput suffers in the short term.

 

So with that in mind, I don't know what kind of scenario would really qualify as "system collapse", or if the system can be fixed other than a 2-year major overhaul.

[Dembo 525]

News yesterday (auf Deutsch)

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/einbuergung-huerden-101.html

 

It confirms there that you can get it after 3 years with "special" integration. I doubt I qualify.

 

Do you have to wait until you meet the requirements before you apply? I've been here 3 years; if it's going to take 2 years to process maybe I should apply now. 

[TurMech 180]

13 minutes ago, Dembo said:

News yesterday (auf Deutsch)

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/einbuergung-huerden-101.html

 

It confirms there that you can get it after 3 years with "special" integration. I doubt I qualify.

 

Do you have to wait until you meet the requirements before you apply? I've been here 3 years; if it's going to take 2 years to process maybe I should apply now. 

 

The new law is not yet in place. Current applications are processed based on the requirements of the current law. The link you shared is just a draft.

[Marone 9]

@Dembo They can only process applications of candidates that are eligible.

[Dembo 525]

1 hour ago, TurMech said:

 

The new law is not yet in place. Current applications are processed based on the requirements of the current law. The link you shared is just a draft.

 

Thanks for that valuable information.

 

11 minutes ago, Marone said:

@Dembo They can only process applications of candidates that are eligible.

 

Exactly, but if it takes them a year to process the application can you send in the application a year early? Or do you have to wait before your eligible before you join the queue? Serious question if anyone actually knows the answer.

[murphaph 9,865]

If they are unable to find enough staff to process applications in less than a year for all, then they should at the very least phase in the changes. First of all, leave the 8 year rule as it is for a while, the system will be choked enough dealing with the Turks that have been here their entire lives living as second class non-citizens. Processing these claims alone, which are the ones that Germany should morally process first (not just Turks, I mean anyone who has been here decades) will hammer the system. There is no pressing need to further pressure the system by slashing the minimum residence period on top of the radical change that is allowing dual citizenship generally. Even then they should prioritise those who have been waiting longest for this. It's unfair that someone who arrived fresh in Germany 3 years ago should have the same wait time as someone perhaps even born here and living here decades already. Perhaps they should also require C1 German at least from all "normal" applicants (i.e.those not excused based on age or disability grounds) as a way to further phase in the changes. It's just too much in one go with the current creaking system they have in place. I am wondering if they should not "re-centralise" the system. AFAIK each Bundesland was previously responsible for all this stuff, then it was delegated to the LK and cities. Berlin is seemingly reversing that now and moving to centralise all processing. I strongly suspect this will be more efficient. They could still maintain a handful of satellite points of contact where the face to face meetings are held for those who find it difficult to travel but this is a "big deal" so I think asking able bodied people to travel to the Landeshauptstadt or some central, well connected place is acceptable. In Ireland all of these interviews are held in Dublin and the citizenship ceremony is held annually in Killarney, with all able bodied applicants expected to travel there to give the oath and be conferred with Irish citizenship. This must be more efficient and above all fairer than the current decentralised approach. Here in my LK there are 2 staff processing all the applications. If one is sick, that's a 50% reduction in capacity! If it was more centralised, the impact of staff being off sick or whatever is shared around many more people.

[Fietsrad 433]

What, quasi compulsory attendance at the ceremony in Killarney? From anywhere in the Republic? In Germany attendance is optional. I used the 9€ ticket to get there, so the trip cost 90 Cents 😉

 

If I was not retired, I might apply to work in the Einbuergerungsabteilung. Interesting job perhaps, but it might help to have studied law.

[murphaph 9,865]

29 minutes ago, Fietsrad said:

What, quasi compulsory attendance at the ceremony in Killarney? From anywhere in the Republic? In Germany attendance is optional. I used the 9€ ticket to get there, so the trip cost 90 Cents 😉

 

If I was not retired, I might apply to work in the Einbuergerungsabteilung. Interesting job perhaps, but it might help to have studied law.

Yep. Requiring (able bodied) new citizens to take a once in a lifetime trip to a citizenship ceremony is fine by me. I attended my optional ceremony in Potsdam but I would not have minded if it was compulsory and had been in Cottbus. I would have viewed it as just part of the deal. It's citizenship you're getting after all, not picking up a pizza.

[Marone 9]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

If they are unable to find enough staff to process applications in less than a year for all, then they should at the very least phase in the changes. First of all, leave the 8 year rule as it is for a while, the system will be choked enough dealing with the Turks that have been here their entire lives living as second class non-citizens. Processing these claims alone, which are the ones that Germany should morally process first (not just Turks, I mean anyone who has been here decades) will hammer the system. 

100% agree.

 

It sounded like most dual citizenship applications (i.e. hardship exceptions) have been forwarded to certain cities, like Darmstadt or Freiburg, but nothing's digital. I kind of like what they did in the US, there's now a smart online form to put the entire application together, validate you fulfill all the requirements, and submit any evidence. Then you get notified of status changes and come in for 1 interview in the next big city. But here's the difference: much of the decision-making is automated, even at the interview. In Germany, by design, so much is in the Behörde's Ermessen. Anyone that applies before the 8 years (married to a German, well-integrated, etc.) does not have an Anspruch, but someone has to take the time and individually decide if they deserve it or not. They all kind of follow the same rules (within a Bundesland), but it's just extra responsibility to bear that slows things down. - I could see that people that have been here 8 years get priority because they have a right (Anspruch), and other applicants don't.

 

22 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Requiring (able bodied) new citizens to take a once in a lifetime trip to a citizenship ceremony is fine by me.

Okay, given the option, I'd rather have a big event with fanfare and congratulations than a casual piece of paper. I heard in Stuttgart they had a chamber orchestra play at a naturalization ceremony. I'd like that.

[murphaph 9,865]

The ceremony I attended in Potsdam was really nicely done, in the Hans Otto Theater, right on the waterfront with a buffet outside in the sun. The musical accompaniment was performed by the students of a school in Luckenwalde. It seems they rotate this honour around each year and youths from a different school in Brandenburg get to do it each time.

[Fietsrad 433]

What about people who want to get Irish citizenship because they had Irish grandparents? This applies to a lot of people in the UK, who might never have been to Ireland.

 

Do they have to visit the Isle, and do a language test?

[snowingagain 5,470]

2 hours ago, Fietsrad said:

What about people who want to get Irish citizenship because they had Irish grandparents? This applies to a lot of people in the UK, who might never have been to Ireland.

Do they have to visit the Isle, and do a language test?

 Citizenship by descent or similar is very different to naturalisation process.   

[john g. 37,776]

22 minutes ago, Fietsrad said:

What about people who want to get Irish citizenship because they had Irish grandparents? This applies to a lot of people in the UK, who might never have been to Ireland.

 

Do they have to visit the Isle, and do a language test?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

[murphaph 9,865]

1 hour ago, Fietsrad said:

What about people who want to get Irish citizenship because they had Irish grandparents? This applies to a lot of people in the UK, who might never have been to Ireland.

 

Do they have to visit the Isle, and do a language test?

These people were Irish citizens the moment they were born. Only people resident in Ireland may naturalise as Irish.

[fraufruit 42,697]

Just now, murphaph said:

Only people resident in Ireland may naturalise as Irish.

 

Just like here.

[BethAnnBitt 3,018]

1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

Just like here.

Or the US, …  😂  I’m married to one of those naturalized citizen folk.