Should I use my academic title in official conversations?

[PandaMunich 16,575]

On 13/10/2022, 11:48:57, bobMorane said:

I obtained my doctoral degree from a German university a few years ago. So, in official academic correspondences, I sign the letters as Dr. Eng. Smith. 

 

6 minutes ago, bobMorane said:

In my case, my degree's title is Dr. rer. nat.. However, it'd be so strange to call an office and introduce myself as Dr.rer.nat. smith! 

No, in spoken language, you just use Doctor.

What I meant is that in writing, you have to either use the generic Dr. or the exact degree Dr. rer. nat.

You do not get to call yourself "Dr. Eng.", that degree is not a degree from a German university and therefore not a degree you have.

[mtbiking 1,886]

Incidentally, only around 2% of the German population has a doctor title and in Germany - and Austria- it’s considered an achievement worthy of recognition and protection. Frankly  I’d rather live in a country where exceptional academic merit is recognized by society than in one where it is laughed at as irrelevant - and at the same time celebrating someone for being born in the right family for example, or being good at kicking a ball, or at whatever the Kardashians do.

 

if there isn’t a doctor police there should be 

[LukeSkywalker 7,604]

30 minutes ago, mtbiking said:

Dr. Morane is always correct, no worries 

Dr. Bob sounds better 👻.

[mako1 864]

46 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

You do not get to call yourself "Dr. Eng.", that degree is not a degree from a German university and therefore not a degree you have.

 

Ha, what if one's name is Eng? Kurt Vonnegut once had a character named Senator who was elected as, you guessed it, senator.

But Panda is correct, you are only a Dr. -Ing. (there is no Eng) if you go to a German university and you get the sheepskin. You can be a doctor and have studied engineering or any other circumlocution, but the title is reserved. I guess you could be Dr. -Eng. since that is not a thing. But it might confuse. Best to stick with what is on your certification.

It's like a DOC, DOCG or AOC for food or wine. Controlled by location.

 

[fraufruit 41,951]

 

What you be is not who you are.

[LukeSkywalker 7,604]

14 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

What you be is not who you are.

Too deep for a Friday thread 👻.

[PandaMunich 16,575]

2 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Yes, similar to a PA in the U.S.

We now also have "Physician Assistants" in Germany, it is a B.Sc. and while they work closely with Ärzte, they work "under" them: https://www.bundesaerztekammer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/_old-files/downloads/pdf-Ordner/Fachberufe/Physician_Assistant.pdf

• "Der PA ist dem ärztlichen Dienst unterstellt." = "The PA is subordinate to the medical doctor. "

Also see here: https://www-hnu-de.translate.goog/studium/studiengaenge/bachelorstudiengaenge/physician-assistant-bsc?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

An Arzt has at least the medical equivalent of a M.Sc., most times also a PhD (Dr. med.).

Your Hausärztin must be an Ärztin, i.e. "more" than a "PA = Physician Assistant"

[mtbiking 1,886]

4 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Too deep for a Friday thread 👻.

 

In my younger years I got away sometimes with answering "Dr- in Love" when asked about it by women.  

[BethAnnBitt 2,906]

1 hour ago, PandaMunich said:

We now also have "Physician Assistants" in Germany, it is a B.Sc. and while they work closely with Ärzte, they work "under" them: https://www.bundesaerztekammer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/_old-files/downloads/pdf-Ordner/Fachberufe/Physician_Assistant.pdf

PAs in the US need a MS from an accredited PA program, above a BS, and must be licensed.  They work in collaboration with a MD, meaning that they must work in a MD’s office as opposed to an independent PA practice.  They work autonomously and consult the supervising physician only on an as needed basis.  They prescribe meds on his/her pad.

 

PAs have been the fastest growing medical degree in the US for years because they provide tremendously high quality service for many routine maladies.  There’s no need to see the doc for a UTI, flu,  … when one can see a PA.  I even saw my doc‘s PA for annual checkups and breast exams.  Having a good PA frees the MD up to see the more complicated cases that require an MD, and the skilled PA knows when to refer those cases back to the MD.  It’s a good system.

 

PAs work in a variety of medical settings, such as operating rooms too.  I was s describing the Primary Care Physician (PCP) setting.

[PandaMunich 16,575]

1 hour ago, BethAnnBitt said:

PAs in the US need a MS from an accredited PA program, above a BS, and must be licensed.  They work in collaboration with a MD, meaning that they must work in an MD’s office as opposed to an independent PA practice.  They work autonomously and consult the supervising physician only on an as needed basis.  They prescribe meds on his/her pad.

 

PAs have been the fastest growing medical degree in the US for years because they provide tremendously high quality service for many routine maladies.  There’s no need to see the doc for a UTI, flu,  … when one can see a PA.  I even saw my doc‘s PA for annual checkups and breast exams.  Having a good PA frees the MD up to see the more complicated cases that require an MD, and the skilled PA knows when to refer those cases back to the MD.  It’s a good system.

 

PAs work in a variety of medical settings, such as operating rooms too.  I was s describing the Primary Care Physician (PCP) setting.

Ah, ok.

In Germany, they are mostly B.Sc., only recently did they introduce (voluntary) Master's degrees for them: https://www.eufh.de/master/physician-assistance

• In Deutschland verfügen Physician Assistants meist über einen Bachelorabschluss. In vielen Ländern hat der Beruf eine große Bedeutung und ist international mit einem Masterabschluss verbunden. Um international vergleichbar zu sein, braucht es auch hierzulande ein Masterstudium zum:zur Physician Assistant.
• In Germany, most physician assistants have a bachelor's degree. In many countries, the profession is of great importance and is internationally associated with a master's degree. In order to be internationally comparable, we also need to introduce a master's degree for Physician Assistant in Germany.

 

[fraufruit 41,951]

My nephew's wife works in a hospital and specializes in cardiology. She also performs lots of procedures.

 

Don't be naïve - doctors/hospitals like them  because they are cheap. 

[catjones 1,658]

5 hours ago, fraufruit said:

So when I see mine next week, I'll just call her Claudia.

 

I call my US Primary Care Physician "John" when we are alone and Dr. Nicolas when with others.  He's not pretentious , so he probably wouldn't mind either way, "Whatever makes you comfortable".  I see him as a friend and as my doctor.

[Aussiedog 269]

20 hours ago, mako1 said:

Kurt Vonnegut once had a character named Senator who was elected as, you guessed it, senator.

 

 

 

And in Catch-22 there is a character named Major Major Major who is promoted to... Major!

 

Wonder who 'stole' whose idea.

 

I have donated to charitable organisations when overcome with guilt and shame at my own relative good fortune in life...and because I just wanted to help.

Once signed up - not sure if I had to - and rather mischievously, and probably committed all kinds of crimes under German law in doing so as, Prof. Dott. Dott. Aussie Dog... amazing the number of letters I now getting asking for more money.

 

[kiplette 8,677]

On 14/10/2022, 14:54:12, BethAnnBitt said:

There’s no need to see the doc for a UTI, flu,  … when one can see a PA.

 

Some nurses do that stuff in the UK. 

 

When kid#3 went to riding, one of the other parents had spent 10 years as a nurse in the UK and when she moved back here with her husband, she stopped altogether because it was so frustrating to only be allowed to wipe bums (her words) as a nurse in Germany.

 

Shame. Terrible waste really.

[bobMorane 52]

On 10/14/2022, 6:00:51, catjones said:

 

I call my US Primary Care Physician "John" when we are alone and Dr. Nicolas when with others.  He's not pretentious , so he probably wouldn't mind either way, "Whatever makes you comfortable".  I see him as a friend and as my doctor.

I like it when it is mutual, either respect or friendliness. So, I prefer my dentist to call me Bob, and I call him John. But if I need to address him as Dr. Stevenson, then he shouldn't call me Herr Smith!

[bobMorane 52]

Recently, I applied for the German naturalization process. I also asked them to include my Dr. title in my ID card (Personalausweis), and I received the following response:

 

"Zur Promotion bzw. zum Titel darf ich darauf hinweisen, dass wir akademische Titel in die Einbürgerungsurkunde nicht mit aufnehmen dürfen. Die passrechtlichen Vorschriften dazu sind mir nicht bekannt."

 

Does it mean they won't add the tile in the Personalausweis, or do they mean something else? Also, is there any clear regulation saying if academic titles are allowed on Personalausweis?

[murphaph 9,652]

It means they will not include any titles in the naturalisation certificate. This makes sense because it's kind of like the equivalent of a birth certificate (I know, legally it is not at all equivalent) so it's just you, the person becoming a citizen, not you "the doctor" or whatever. You might lose your title later for some reason (let's say they discovered you plagiarised your final thesis) and then you would have been naturalised as Dr. x, without being a Dr. anymore. You would then be called Dr. x forever more, despite not actually being one.

 

You are also mixing things up...the Personalausweis is not (directly) linked to your naturalisation application. You naturalise as John Smith, then when applying for the Perso you can ask that department (usually not the same one, and here almost certainly not the same one as they say they don't know anything about the rules for titles in passports etc.) to include your title on your ID card if you have one. It's like a German baby has their birth cert but if obviously doesn't have any title on it. That is proven by other means and only when applying for the ID card.

[bobMorane 52]

1 minute ago, murphaph said:

You are also mixing things up...the Personalausweis is not (directly) linked to your naturalisation application

Seems like I mixed them up! :)

So, don't they automatically issue a Personalausweis after the naturalization application is done (after having "Einbürgerungsurkunde " and the German passport)? Do I need to apply for that afterward as a separate process?

[pappnase 2,573]

50 minutes ago, bobMorane said:

they automatically issue a Personalausweis after the naturalization application is done

No one of your first 'official' actions after collecting the Certificate is to apply for a perso and/or a passport reflecting your new status.

You can apply for either or both but you need to apply.

 

[murphaph 9,652]

Yeah what papp said. The naturalisation process ends with the handing over of the certificate. At that moment you become a German citizen, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails and also as papp says, the first responsibility in practical terms is to go and apply for your first Perso or Passport (or both) at your local Bürgeramt (you are done with the Ausländerbehörde at this point as you are a German citizen). You must own at least one of them and keep it current. When you apply for whichever one you choose, you can ask about having your Dr. title included but beware, if the paperwork proving your title is foreign, there's a reasonable chance you will be asked to have it translated officially into German. I believe only a Dr. title can be added and they will not add anything else (like what you are a doctor of).