Feeling under threat at work

[DaringD 106]

At the end of last month I sent an email to my boss asking if our company had any plans to help out employees with the cost of living, fuel, energy and other price hikes that essentially devalue our wages.

 

After some back and forth the email was passed on to our HR who invited me for a meeting, saying they "would be happy to discuss my concerns in this personal meeting".

 

At this meeting  other than me was my boss and his boss, a member of HR and the head of HR.

 

after an initial explanation as to why the HR team were there (to mediate and take notes) they meeting began and I realised that this was not about my concerns, but instead they began to fire accusations at me that included absenteeism (the practice of taking time off work without good reason) and also synonymously used the phrase "your reliability issues". I was directly attacked by the head of HR who asked me how I could have the nerve to ask for more money when I had this record of absenteeism. 

 

I'll briefly explain for context, I was off work for a long period of time due to mental health problems, bipolar, insomnia and acute anxiety. I am diagnosed now and on medication plus i have regular visits to a Psychiatrist and Neurologist and every two weeks with a therapist,  and I also did a stint at the local Psychosomatische Tagesklinik during my time off. I have had to take off more time than usual since returning to work in April 2021 as my kids were not allowed to go to kindergarten if they had so much as a sniffle, plus when they actually had covid, followed by a period where I had Covid too, the last years have been tough.  I was also signed off work three times over the last two years since my return for chronic bouts of insomnia. Every day off is accounted for with doctors notes for myself and my kids, I have no days of absence without holiday or a sicknote.

 

During the meeting I was pressured into giving specific details of my condition, and they also tried to make me commit to a "solution to my reliability problems".

 

I was also told that this "absenteeism could not be tolerated and that there can be consequences, though this was never elaborated on, and it was mentioned many times how terrible this was for the company and what hardship I was causing them.

 

I was also being goaded into making a statement that my problems were stopping me perform my duties, and that I didn't want to work there, though in both cases I refused to go along with it.

 

I felt very pressurized and very anxious the entire time this was happening and all I wanted was for it to be over.  I felt out manned and out gunned and unable to defend myself properly as I was so flustered. In hindsight I wish I had called a halt to the meeting and asked for it to be rescheduled, but I was frankly scared to as I felt intimidated by the HR manager and the fact that I was one against four.

 

I really feel that I was lured into a de-facto disciplinary hearing, the email I got inviting me mentioned nothing about any of this and only that we could discuss my concerns, which we actually didn't discuss because I was totally stonewalled on that front every time I attempted to bring it up.

 

I was offered no Protokoll for the meeting, there was not real conclusion to the meeting, I was left confused, angry, scared.

 

No one has ever taken this tone with me before, no one has ever mentioned anything about my "Absenteeism" before I sent this email, and certainly no one has ever made me feel threatened in such a way. I really feel that this is some sort of indiscrete warning, or their attempt to shut me down with regard to the questions I was asking.

 

I'm absolutely floored by this, for the last two days I have, ironically, suffered from not being able to sleep properly and being almost constantly anxious, I have butterflies and that stressed feeling of tightness across my chest, I'm finding it hard to concentrate - in short, I'm having a very bad reaction to this and worried about where this is going, but not only that, I cannot believe this happened.  I'm now scared to take the time off to see my doctor, which I normally would if I began to feel like this since it's incredibly bad for my health, and I'm even more worried that if I do his first action would be to sign me off.

 

There is no official Betriebsrat at my place of work, though it is big enough to have one.

 

Any advice or insight would be appreciated, I've never felt so powerless or violated in my life.

 

D

 

 

[optimista 5,840]

Clearly the meeting was an ordeal for you. One against four, and you totally unprepared. Bastards. 

 

Ball is in their court but it bodes ill. Try to stay calm. Easily said, of course. 

 

Sorry it happened to you.

[jeba 4,347]

Taking out legal cost insurance may be a good idea. One, that covers employment issues, that is. There will probably be a run in period of a few 3 months, in which you´ll not be covered, though.

[vivanco 173]

11 hours ago, DaringD said:

During the meeting I was pressured into giving specific details of my condition, and they also tried to make me commit to a "solution to my reliability problems".

I don't know your personal situation and your expertise. However currently it's an worker market as their is shortage of workforce in nearly all the sector. Perhaps you can look for another job and get the needed 20%+  raise by, changing the job. 

[fraufruit 41,947]

It looks like you got the answer to your question.

 

I hope that your therapist can help you with the aftermath.

 

Bastards.

[catjones 1,658]

Many people fail to realize that the HR department is a Company function.  It processes employee benefits, etc. but it represents the Company, not the employee and you should see them as just that.

In your case, the company's best interests would be to replace you.  Depending on the severity and frequency of your health issues, you may find yourself in a similar situation elsewhere as well.  Any chance you can work from home or migrate into a career where that's possible?

[DaringD 106]

I've given this a lot of thought the last days. 

 

catjones is right, HR prioritise the needs of the company over the needs of employees. I haven't always known this but since Thursday I wonder how I ever missed it before. 

 

I've sought legal advice which I'm waiting to hear back from, specifically asking the best way to protect myself and to begin compiling evidence, should I ever need it. 

 

Being a fan of James Comey and having read his biography, I thought to make contemporaneous notes as soon as I could after the meeting, and that helped to rebuild a time line of the meeting filled with everything I can remember. 

 

I've always been a person of principle, and I don't think this is a fight I can walk away from, it's just wrong that they think they can get away with treating anyone this way, so I'm going to go the distance and try to back them into a corner. 

 

So far I have no official meeting log, which I have requested along with clarification of what exactly they mean by "Absenteeism" and "reliability issues" and what exactly they expect me to do to fix it.  Clarification on what exactly my pattern of behavior is, and if they consider the matter of pay rises or help with regard to inflation and fuel & energy rises to be closed. I've aked for these clarifications in the context of being sure that I am able to know exactly what is expected of me, which I think no one could argue is unfair. And I'm going to insist on written clarification. 

 

I'll also try to get an appointment with my doctor for tomorrow after I finish work so I can get it on record that this has badly affected my mental health. 

 

Thanks to anyone who has commented so far, I'm looking at unions for the future and help with setting up a Betriebsrat ASAP. 

 

[optimista 5,840]

Only fight those battles you can win. 

 

A former colleague was fired after two years frequent absence owing to sickness. She had been with the company (one of Germany s largest) two decades. They were apparently within their rights as she really was no longer fit for work . It is

a cruel reality that in a free market system people are dispensable. Horrid. Philanthropy in employers went out with the ark.

Take care of you and yours and use your time and energy wisely. Good luck.

[jeba 4,347]

10 hours ago, DaringD said:

I've always been a person of principle, and I don't think this is a fight I can walk away from, it's just wrong that they think they can get away with treating anyone this way, so I'm going to go the distance and try to back them into a corner. 

You´re risking to be deemed a troublemaker. If I was you I´d think long and hard about the risk/benefit ratio.

[robinson100 12,792]

@ DaringD - whilst I fully appreciate that you do not want to walk away from this, as it is not right and not fair, please think of your own health and well-being first!

I had a lot of problems with my company last year, and if your company is anything like mine, they will gladly grind you into a pulp and spit out the pieces, without blinking an eye!

 

One thing I found out last year, that might be interesting for you to know, is that if you cannot go back to work because your doctor says it is bad for your health, you can immediately claim unemployment benefit, and do not have to wait three months, as you usually would if you were to simply decide you didn´t want to work there.

 

Please start looking for another job, and then you can tell them exactly what they can do with your current one!

 

 

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

On 9/11/2022, 5:44:51, jeba said:

Taking out legal cost insurance may be a good idea. One, that covers employment issues, that is. There will probably be a run in period of a few 3 months, in which you´ll not be covered, though.

 

That won`t help in this case, the dispute has already started.

 

The meeting minutes will have a date.

[DaringD 106]

Again, thank you all for your advice,

 

I'm fully aware that I could go the route of being declared unfit for work and not have to wait three months, this is partly the reason I have decided that the risk to benefit ratio is about 1:1 in this case, the worst thing that can happen is that I lose my job and immediately receive support.

 

Quote

You´re risking to be deemed a troublemaker. If I was you I´d think long and hard about the risk/benefit ratio.

 

I think at this point I am beyond that.  After the meeting I had I think it is clear that they already consider me a problem. The fact they hauled me up on this in an illegitimate disciplinary as opposed to talking it over with me in an understanding and normal way kind of tells me that as far as they are concerned the gloves are off.

To everyone concerned about this making me worse in terms of my mental health, I hear you.  I'm also concerned, but I think in the long run it would be worse for me to not do something.  It's a matter of principle, and one of the biggest contributing factors to my mental health problems is the fact that people don't seem to take action and instead back down and give in because of the risk of the consequences to them (not that I am angry at them, but angry that this is the way things generally work and the people in the most secure and powerful position more often than not get away with exploiting and abusing the rest of us).  It's a hard to dispute that if everyone pushed back in these kinds of situations then this then this kind of thing would happen a lot less. So on pure principle, even if the risks far outweighed the benefits, I'd still feel compelled to do this.

 

If it turns out that there is a legal route to them dismissing me for medical reasons, then I'm perfectly happy for them to pursue that in a legitimate way, but what they did was wrong and I would like to think that even if I go down, I'll make them think twice before they pull this kind of thing with someone else, and that they are made to do this the correct and lawful way and not employ the tactics of intimidation.

 

Looking back through my paper work I have also noticed that I was refused a pay raise in my last performance review on the basis of "reliability".  Now I know what they meant by that I think I'll have a decent shot at having them answer for this too.

 

 

 

 

[fraufruit 41,947]

44 minutes ago, DaringD said:

I'm fully aware that I could go the route of being declared unfit for work and not have to wait three months, this is partly the reason I have decided that the risk to benefit ratio is about 1:1 in this case, the worst thing that can happen is that I lose my job and immediately receive support.

 

If declared unfit for work, how could you get another job or do you want to live from the "support"?

[DaringD 106]

I wouldn't plan on living from the support indefinately, but since before I returned to work I was encouraged to look at this possibility by the staff in the clinic and by my therapist. The job centre do offer some pretty good courses on retraining through accredited organisations, and I've already considered and investigated exactly what I might do if this happened, as it was obviously a big decision to be made before returning to work last year.

So I'd take the support, both financial and in terms of education and make the most of it to find work in a different sector. But I absolutely wouldn't want to live off that support for any length of time. To anyone that is interested I would be looking at moving towards programming.

[LeonG 14,797]

If you do end up written off sick, you can not apply for ALG i (unemployment) as far as I know because you are not fit to work.  Normally your employer would pay you the first 6 weeks and then your health insurance takes over and pays you something like 75% in sick pay. Your employer will probably give you notice if you are written off sick for any length of time as they've already said they have a problem with you.

 

Unless you then get better on your own and apply for ALG i, the health care will encourage you to get better so they don't have to pay you any more.  If you are sick for any length of time, they will likely encourage you to apply to go to a reha through the rentenkasse.  Your doctor would support your application and you could be staying at some clinic in a picturesque small town getting all kind of therapies for 3-4 weeks.  The reha will help you rehabilitate or even help you figure out different jobs you could do which could be less stressful.  They will send you home with recommendations.  If they declare you as fit to work in the end, you can apply for ALG i and see what they can do for you.  Normally they try to find you jobs but they can also send you to someone who will coach you on job search and help you with career choices or getting training.

 

If you don't end up written off sick, you could quit your job with the reason given that you are being bullied and that this is detrimental to your health.  In this case, you can go straight on ALG i.  Somebody did this where I used to work.  She was actually not being bullied but she was making a lot of mistakes and she was aware that they were slowly starting to look for a reason to fire her.

 

[catjones 1,658]

6 hours ago, DaringD said:

even if I go down, I'll make them think twice before they pull this kind of thing with someone else,

 

Frankly, once you're gone, they won't give it another thought.

If you think your pursuit is going to penalize the company or make them feel bad, you do not understand corporate mentality.

You are now a liability and a waste of their time.  Either you reach an agreement or you're out.

If you want to talk about "principles", the principle here is the cost and productivity of your labor.  In their eyes, costs are going up and productivity is going down.

[DaringD 106]

I know you're trying to talk sense into me and for that I'm super grateful. 

 

So what's the move here? 

 

I can't believe or accept that there isn't anything I can do that will serve justice. That's is just accepting that they are literally above the law, they can run roughshod over employee rights and laugh in the face of regulations. 

 

It makes me sick to my core that this can go unchecked. 

 

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just super frustrated. 

 

The idea that this guy can sit there with his little-mob-boss mentality and think he's untouchable AND be right about it... Makes me, and should make everyone of us shake with fury. 

 

[jeba 4,347]

Maybe you should discuss the problem with a friend or a lawyer before taking action while still furious. A different perspective may be a good thing. Tbh, it´s not clear to me what exactly your boss has done which you can prove and what is against the law.  He  "fired accusations against" you and "pressured you into giving specific details of your condition". I doubt that any of this will bear any weight in the eyes of a judge. It could also be seen as letting you know that he´s not pleased with your performance and for the sake of fairness and out of compassionate concern for you giving you an opportunity to explain your situation, being the noble character he is.

They told you at the beginning of the meeting that it was supposed to be a mediation, not about your suggestion to increase their cost of labour, so you can´t claim they had a hidden agenda. From what you´ve told us so far, it seems difficult to point to something which would stand in court.

 

 

[optimista 5,840]

Life - and in particular the job market - is actually a jungle. No one owes you a living. We seem to forget that. It is indeed quite brutal when you are no longer at the top of your game. 

[DaringD 106]

Quote

They told you at the beginning of the meeting that it was supposed to be a mediation, not about your suggestion to increase their cost of labour, so you can´t claim they had a hidden agenda. From what you´ve told us so far, it seems difficult to point to something which would stand in court.

 

I'll go over it:

 

Firstly the invitation to the meeting said almost exactly "we'll be happy to talk to you about your concerns in a personal meeting" and nothing else.

What they did here was disingenuous, and given that up until this point I had no indication that anyone was in any way dissatisfied with this, I had no reason to believe that anything was wrong at all.  Alone it probably wouldn't stand up to much, but given that they also accused me of absenteeism, and then used that accusation to refuse to talk about the very thing they supposedly invited me there to talk about won't look great for them if it's added to a longer list of mis-steps.

 

Add to that past events where my pay has been held down for "reliability" which they have now defined as my absences due to my condition (also illegal).

 

Then they pressured me to give up specific details of my condition, also illegal, in fact just asking isn't allowed never mind asking in a pressured situation.. One could argue that it would be hard to prove that they pressured me, but in a 4 on 1 meeting that was disingenuously represented in the first place it's not hard to imagine how this could escalate to me feeling threatened - in this situation simply saying I felt threatened is totally plausible, it would be plausible in a meeting with a boss 1 on 1 because of the power dynamic, now make that manager the head of HR and throw in two more managers for good measure an you have some over kill of management in the room.

The part where HR told me they were there as mediators was at the start of the meeting, so I was in there already, and it was sold to me as "this is just standard stuff we have to say..." once I had realised what was actually happening I was already too flustered to do anything. Also the head of HR was the person slinging these accusations at me, which is pretty far from mediating, that's taking the lead.

 

If the meeting had been fairly represented and some sort of agenda set, as is usually the case with every meeting I have ever been to then I could have, and certainly would have chosen to bring an representative with me, but I wasn't given that chance, and the only subject of the meeting that was mentioned in the invitation was the one thing they refused to talk about,  I was repeatedly stone walled when I tried to steer the conversation to the subject of my email.

 

I would say that the whole thing, though probably not the basis for any kind of case on it's own (which is not what I am looking for at this point) is pretty good ammunition to have if they do decide to take this any further. 

 

I'm not stupid enough to think I can do anything with what I have so far, and it's totally right that I should consider all options before pushing anything forward, especially while I'm still fired up, I do get that, and I appreciate that many of you are trying to cool me off.

 

The thing is, I don't love the work I do, it's my job, but I do love the people I work with, and I am good at my job, the job it's self is not the cause of my condition, it doesn't add to the kind of stresses that make me worse, and it gives me the daily and weekly routine I need to keep my shit together. I don't want to lose my job, or particularly want to change my job, for the time being I'm happy in this job, or at least I was until this happened.

 

Quote

Life - and in particular the job market - is actually a jungle. No one owes you a living. We seem to forget that. It is indeed quite brutal when you are no longer at the top of your game. 

 

Isn't that the truth...  I know that no one owes me a living, but this isn't like I have slowly deteriorated and they decided "ok its time to let this guy know what time it is" it's the fact that its... it's retaliation to something I did that isn't at all unreasonable.  There was not a peep of this problem until I sent that bloody email.

You also have to love that in Germany people love rules until they get in their way, then they'll happily mow through the rulebook with a machete. "How dare you cross the road while the light is red!" said the man, as he sped past at 20 over the limit.

 

As infuriating as all of this is, I can't imagine what it must be like for all those people still living in the UK right now, at least Germany has laws against this kind of thing for employers to ignore, this November 5th the biggest bonfire in the UK is going to be the one with all the workers rights in it.

 

Thanks everyone...  again.