China. Didn't they tell us its a communist country?

11 posts in this topic

just curious.

I asked my chinese colleagues what would strike me most if I were to visit China now.

The answer I got most often is the large number of people that are very visibly either extremely rich, or extremely poor,.

I don't get it. Didn't they tell us China is/was a communist country?

i thought the good thing about communist, possibly the ONLY good thing, is that nobody is very poor. And this comes at the cost of making everybody else less well off, especially the very rich...

🤔

 

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4 hours ago, Gambatte said:

i thought the good thing about communist, possibly the ONLY good thing, is that nobody is very poor

Ha?

 

How old are you? Ever heard of a country called the Soviet Union? 

 

China is economically no more Communist (but still larger sectors of the economy are controlled by the state), but politically it still pretty much is. 

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You will notice the chinese nose cleaning sound and spitting.

 

I think only 2 groups still claim China is Communist.

 

1. Slack jawed Americans who are politically naive. Americans, with the trade deficit, have done wonders for the chinese economy. And calling them heathens or yellow devils is a bit passe outside of the southern states.

 

2. The communist party of China (CPC). Autocracy doesn't really market well. Essentially, at this point, the CPC has removed the longstanding rule that the leader cannot succeed him- or herself. Xi stays in power as long as he wants since the system demands loyalty. Hence, an autocrat.

 

As a trotskyite, I am offended by those who claim to be communist but are not. Pretenders.

 

They have brought millions out of poverty at the cost of rights, freedoms, etc. A question is how much of this new wealth is due to communist policies and how much to the hard work of the chinese comrades?

 

But the gap between rich and poor has grown. I think Douglas Coupland called this 'brazilification'. A good example is the USA: 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/04/07/magazine/jeff-bezos-net-worth.html

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China is an extreme capitalist country, a dictatorship, and the only communist parts are some social aspects.

I think the hard part of distinguishing what is communist from what is dictatorship is that socialist societies on the way to communism (communism was never achieved) require a dictatorship, as communism is against basic human emotions, so you need dictatorship to suppress them

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Communism is great in theory, bad in practise. MikeMelga is right. It is against basic human emotions. If you look at the history of Communist countries, you will see they are not Communist but Dictatorships. The people do not have equality, they are controlled by tyrants hell bent on power. Sad but true.

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Seem to me, if I read about the two extremes (https://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Fascism) China seems to have moved to the far right so is only communist in name. Russia and the former USSR states are now purely capitalist countries, but were once as communist as it perhaps got. Some argue it's an unachievable ideal. I think it's a shame the western education system doesn't teach more about the far left and far right wing ideologies and openly discuss them, rather than just labelling them as 'bad' and never actually talking about the problems and the typical outcomes where countries have tried such approaches.

 

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Visitors to a Kibbutz told me that they were pure communism. At least that is what I heard in the '80s

 

It's the only example I can think of where

communism does not equate to a dictatorship.

 

Maybe @yorkeau can expand?

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, HH_Sailor said:

Visitors to a Kibbutz told me that they were pure communism. At least that is what I heard in the '80s

 

It's the only example I can think of where

communism does not equate to a dictatorship.

 

Maybe @yorkeau can expand?

They might actually be correct. Communism can work on extreme small scales.

 

Extreme example: vast majorities of families are communist. Income is aggregated usually in a single account, expenses are paid from the family money, independentely who took the expense. This can also work with small communities, usually religious.

 

Problem is when you move to larger scale.

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It's interesting that the true communist countries: Russia, and China reformed to capitalist countries with brutal wealth disparities.

Countries like Norway and even Germany are socialist paradises in comparison to the dog eat dog of ex communism.

 

I think communes make it work on a small scale because people are there voluntarily. They want to make it work.

As opposed to being trapped by communism.

 

Now bee hives. They are the perfection of communism.

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On 8/7/2022, 7:27:42, HH_Sailor said:

Visitors to a Kibbutz told me that they were pure communism. At least that is what I heard in the '80s

 

It's the only example I can think of where

communism does not equate to a dictatorship.

 

Maybe @yorkeau can expand?

 

 

 

This was true in the past, but most kibbutzim have been privatized by now. Very few "kibbutz with ideology" remained. 

 

Kibbutzim (plural) were pretty unique because they were founded by immigrants (mostly from Europe) on a deserted land. In contrast, collective farms in Ukraine (USSR times), Poland or East Germany were founded on confiscated land, and in the USSR people were forced to work in those farms, they were basically slaves: no government IDs, no freedom to move to another farm or freedom to work in a town. Slavery in the USSR ended in 1972, farm workers got IDs and were treated as other USSR citizens with all the (non) freedoms applied. 

 

In contrast, kibbutz members were free to be their members or free to leave the kibbutz. They got:

1. a job, but all income was paid into kibbutz.

2. housing and food for free. I don't know about healthcare. I guess the kibbutz paid into health insurance, so all members were covered. 

3. Kibbutzim had several cars for the members to use for free.

4. AFAIK there were no kindergartens, all women took care of all children, including not their own. They also had to work, of course. 

 

For the outside world, a kibbutz was an agricultural company that sold its products on a free market. 

 

Did that work? Since very few kibbutzim "with ideology" remained, the answer is no. It worked well in 1930-1950s when Israel was like an African country, and collective farming gave the members financial stability in life. Nowadays there are better options than to work on a farm. Nowadays kibbutzim are like gated communities that accept outsider families to live there, but not to work. 

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