Grundsteuerreform

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After trying the Grundsteuererklaerung link that Herr Schnitzel provided, I logged back in to Elster to try to finish my return without any errors.  I just couldn't get the errors fixed, so I decided to delete what I had typed in and start over. 

 

Before I started again, I did a google search on "GW1 und GW2" and found the following pdf:  https://www.finanzverwaltung.nrw.de/system/files/media/document/file/Klickanleitung_Elster_Wohngrundstuecke.pdf.  I read through the pdf and used it as a template for my Grundsteuererklaerung.  This time around I was able to complete the return without errors.  

 

I will be in Berlin in September and will talk with one of my friends who owns their apartment and ask them to look over what I input on Elster.  If everything looks good, I'll submit the return then.  

 

S.

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More information:

 

After trying the Grundsteuererklaerung link that Herr Schnitzel provided, I logged back in to Elster to try to finish my return without any errors.  I just couldn't get the errors fixed, so I decided to delete what I had typed in and start over. 

 

Before I started again, I did a google search on "GW1 und GW2" and found the following pdf:  https://www.finanzverwaltung.nrw.de/system/files/media/document/file/Klickanleitung_Elster_Wohngrundstuecke.pdf.  I read through the pdf and used it as a template for my Grundsteuererklaerung.  This time around I was able to complete the return without errors.  

 

I will be in Berlin in September and will talk with one of my friends who owns their apartment and ask them to look over what I input on Elster.  If everything looks good, I'll submit the return then.  

 

S.

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Hello again everybody, now I want to continue work on my declaration, but I'm having trouble getting all the required information and could do with some help.
I'll just mention that I am not in Germany and and I am a non-resident property owner.

I have my Notar sale documents, but it appears to me that this isn't the Grundsbuch, I can't see much useful information in this document.

I'm left confused about Wohnungseigentum, Mieteigentumsanteil and some other things.

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pete berlin,

 

I am also a non-resident property owner.  The only option available is to fill the Grundsteuererklaerung under Elster.  Do you have a logon/certificate for Elster?  If not, you should apply for one as soon as possible.  

 

Take a look at the pdf link I listed in my earlier post.  It shows how you enter the information in Elster when you own a condominium.  You should be able to find the Flurstueck Zaehler and Nenner along with the Flaeche from the FIS broker website (https://fbinter.stadt-berlin.de/fb/index.jsp). 

 

The "Zur wirtschaflichen Einheit gehoerender Antell Zaehler and Nenner" is found in the Grundbuch.  IF you do not have the pages from the Grundbuch, you can calculate the "Zur wirtschaflichen Einheit gehoerender Antell Zaehler and Nenner" from one of your Jahresabrechnung statements for your apartment.  On the Jahresabrechnung you should see the total build size (square meters) and your apartment size (square meters).  Divide your apartment size by the total building size to come up with your percentage/share of the building:  For example, apartment is 75 square meters; total building size is 1450 square meters.  75 / 1450 = 0.05152414.  For the "Zur wirtschaflichen Einheit gehoerender Antell Zaehler and Nenner" you would enter 51 and 1000; or 515 and 10000.

 

It's not too difficult, just a little confusing.

 

S.

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pete berlin,

 

I am also a non-resident property owner.  The only option available is to fill the Grundsteuererklaerung under Elster.  Do you have a logon/certificate for Elster?  If not, you should apply for one as soon as possible.  

 

Take a look at the pdf link I listed in my earlier post.  It shows how you enter the information in Elster when you own a condominium.  You should be able to find the Flurstueck Zaehler and Nenner along with the Flaeche from the FIS broker website (https://fbinter.stadt-berlin.de/fb/index.jsp). 

 

The "Zur wirtschaflichen Einheit gehoerender Antell Zaehler and Nenner" is found in the Grundbuch.  IF you do not have the pages from the Grundbuch, you can calculate the "Zur wirtschaflichen Einheit gehoerender Antell Zaehler and Nenner" from one of your Jahresabrechnung statements for your apartment.  On the Jahresabrechnung you should see the total build size (square meters) and your apartment size (square meters).  Divide your apartment size by the total building size to come up with your percentage/share of the building:  For example, apartment is 75 square meters; total building size is 1450 square meters.  75 / 1450 = 0.05152414.  For the "Zur wirtschaflichen Einheit gehoerender Antell Zaehler and Nenner" you would enter 51 and 1000; or 515 and 10000.

 

It's not too difficult, just a little confusing.

 

S.

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Thanks so much Shenandoah. 

Yes, I am registered with Elster, I've already seen the pages, it isn't easy as I'm not much of a German speaker, but with internet translation, it can probably be done. I'll be working on it.

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On 26/07/2022, 17:32:00, Herr Schnitzel said:

For anybody who just owns a flat rather than a real estate empire or commercial properties, I would recommend to use https://www.grundsteuererklaerung-fuer-privateigentum.de/ rather than Elster, it's a lot more user friendly.

 

 

 

Thank you so much for this link. It looks indeed a lot easier than Elster, which I only had a look at and found extremely difficult. 

I seem to have been able to file a declaration and ID myself with the Elster credential (I guess it's now possible due to the update you mentioned). 

 

It's odd that this is the only place where I've found this link, also on the Berlin Grundsteuer website there's no mention of it. 

https://www.berlin.de/grundsteuer/en/

Do you know if this can be used for more than one property though? I also own a Gewerbe in a residential building apart from the flat I live in. 

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I also wanted to double check this one specific question which is: 

 

Do the land and the building have the same owners?
We ask this to find out whether your building is on someone else's land or whether the heritable building right to the property applies to you.

 

I'm guessing the answer is in most cases:

Yes, the building and the property have the same owners

 

Does anyone know if this could be different in normal old residential buildings? 

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4 minutes ago, markfusara said:

I also wanted to double check this one specific question which is: 

 

Do the land and the building have the same owners?
We ask this to find out whether your building is on someone else's land or whether the heritable building right to the property applies to you.

 

I'm guessing the answer is in most cases:

Yes, the building and the property have the same owners

 

Does anyone know if this could be different in normal old residential buildings? 

 

yes, "normal old" buildings can still be sitting on "Erbpacht" or "Erbbaurecht" land.

 

You (as the owner of the building) would know if that's the case - because you would be paying "Erbpachtzins" - some kind of "rent" for the land.

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Just now, karin_brenig said:

 

yes, "normal old" buildings can still be sitting on "Erbpacht" or "Erbbaurecht" land.

 

You (as the owner of the building) would know if that's the case - because you would be paying "Erbpachtzins" - some kind of "rent" for the land.

 

Great thanks, I don't seem to be paying that, at least if it's paid directly and not through the Hausgeld.  

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11 hours ago, markfusara said:

Does anyone know if it's fine to use  https://www.grundsteuererklaerung-fuer-privateigentum.de for the declaration of a commercial space (office) in a residential building? 

 

Nope, it isn't:

6328d6caea70c_2022-09-1922_51_14-Grundst

 

Definition of "gemischt genutzte Grundstücke" in §181 BewG: https://dejure.org/gesetze/BewG/181.html

  • (7) Gemischt genutzte Grundstücke sind Grundstücke, die teils Wohnzwecken, teils eigenen oder fremden betrieblichen oder öffentlichen Zwecken dienen und nicht Ein- und Zweifamilienhäuser, Mietwohngrundstücke, Wohnungseigentum, Teileigentum oder Geschäftsgrundstücke sind.
     
  • (7) Mixed-use properties are properties that serve partly residential purposes and partly own or third-party business or public purposes and are not detached or semi-detached houses, rented residential properties, condominiums, part-ownership or business properties.
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OK.  Very ignorant person here.  What the fuck is Erbbaurecht.   We have own a Reihenhaus (and mystery garage) built on Pope owned land.  4 pages in puchase docuement, I must have slept through that bit at the Notar.  The other bits we own a fraction with the other people here with the same. The contract mentions numerous plots, but no m2.   Boris BW only mentions one for us.  Give up.  Or can I just bung in what Boris says.  Or make something up.  Why on earth are they making us do this, collate data from their systems, that they, of course, understand.  Bollocks.

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I'm having a go at Elster and I already got a question:

 

Enthalten in der/den in Anlage Grundstück, Zeile 4 angegebenen Fläche(n) des (Teil-)Grundstücks:

 

Does anyone know what this one is? 

Screen Shot 2022-09-21 at 12.19.12.png

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I think I also screwed up at the beginning, in the Anlagenauswahl, as I only selected GW1 and I think also GW2 had to be selected. Can't seem to find a way to go back and correct that though... 

 

 

Screen Shot 2022-09-21 at 12.39.45.png

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31 minutes ago, markfusara said:

I think I also screwed up at the beginning, in the Anlagenauswahl, as I only selected GW1 and I think also GW2 had to be selected. Can't seem to find a way to go back and correct that though... 

Screen Shot 2022-09-21 at 12.39.45.png

 

At the bottom-left of the window, there is the button "Anlagen hinzufügen/entfernen".

Click on it and it will take you back to the above menu where you can then check the box for GW2.

632af1629d239_2022-09-2113_09_36-.png.b0

 

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On 26.7.2022, 17:32:00, Herr Schnitzel said:

For anybody who just owns a flat rather than a real estate empire or commercial properties, I would recommend to use https://www.grundsteuererklaerung-fuer-privateigentum.de/ rather than Elster, it's a lot more user friendly. But because with German bureaucracy and digitalisation, nothing can ever be easy, you can't use it if you already have an Elster account. At least not till September, when they are coming up with an update, which allows the use of both. I just sent them an email trying to find out if I can use it if I delete my Elster account and am waiting to hear back.

 

I found nearly all of the information needed in the purchase contract for my flat and the Bodenrichtwert on the "boris" website, I just found Elster a total nightmare. It wants information which isn't needed for flat owners and then sends unresolvable error messages if you don't fill them in. The help items are totally useless in some cases making things more confusing and don't even get me started on the chatbot, it's the usual German digitalisation clusterf*ck. 

 

 

If you own a property where there are other owners included, for eg Garagenhof, the above mentioned website can not be used. They expects and update be end of this month to the above website . Then it will support the inclusion of shared owner ship properties

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Re BW and the Elster.   House here shows 1 Flr Stk for the house, and another for the common areas and garages with a 1/8 which shows we each own 1/8th.  All M2 and details easy to find in Boris BW:   

 

However for daughter's apartment can only find 1 Flr Stk   In the purchase contract it refers to this to be the apartment area and an Abstellraum in the cellar, with one M2.  No separate Fl Stk for common areas.    It says "The ownership of plot no. XXXX  is divided into co-ownership shares in such a way that special ownership of a certain flat or of certain rooms not used for residential purposes is connected with a tenancy share."   The letter from the Stadt also just reference the one Flr Stk, as does Boris BW.

 

So my question is, is it okay to just enter this one Flr Stk in the GRE.    Please forgive me if this does not make any sense.   

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