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Miete Issues: Young Family kicked out apartment

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Dear all, 

this thread involves 2 issues, so perhaps I will make another thread instead of putting it all in one. However, for the sake of clarify, I want to explain it all in one post. 

So first issue: Young Syrian family with three kids. They both work, but both are in Probezeit (have been living in Germany for the last 5 years). She does accounting in Freising and he works in a hotel during the night as night audit. They are getting kicked out of their house because the owner of the house wants to move in. She hired a lawyer and informed them via a letter that they have until September 1 to move out, or else they must pay extra. Not sure how this "extra" is called, but it would be the rent plus some penalty fees. They are struggling to find an apartment until then and move out, but it is not that easy around Munich. My question is the following: how binding is this order to evacuate their home? If they cannot find a suitable place by September 1, what will happen? They cannot pay the extra fees. Can they get kicked out with three kids?

Second question: This family is struggling financially. They recently had a car accident, during which time they both got pretty hurt. He needed a shoulder reconstruction, and she suffered a broken arm and now ahs back pain. Both are in their early 30s. He needed to stop working and got krankengeld, which was even less than the eager salary he was getting from his lager job. Their car was totally destroyed, yet the accident was partly his fault, so insurance won't pay anything. They barely scrambled to buy another used car, which they need as they live far from public transportation. So back to the second question: as there is no way they can afford a kaution of three months in advance, is there a way that they can receive financial support for this? I heard of something called Miete Ohne Kaution, but I am not sure what that is. Is there any other tips that any of you can give me for them to better organize this move and especially the new kaution (they will get the old Kaution only 3 months after moving out)?

Thank you,

ProtonMom

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It could be that the owner wants to raise the rent not move in. I say that because the owner said they can stay after Sept. 1 if they pay more.

 

They need to join a Mietverein today which is a cheap way to have all of their questions answered. 

 

I'm pretty certain that they can't be kicked out like that especially with children. Eigenbedarf takes longer that that and the owner can be made to pay their moving costs, etc.

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What is our song and dance here?  All together now: "Join the Mieterverein!"

 

The Mieterverein can for a modest fee help them figure out what their rights are and to write letters to the landlady.  I don't think they will help them go to court because they are joining after they already have a problem.

 

Another possible option would be to apply for beratungshilfe based on that they are not making enough money, don't have legal insurance and aren't members of the mieterverein (yet).  They can get this from the court.  You can find a form here:  beratungshilfe_antrag_avr070.pdf (bayern.de)

 

I quickly googled a little and found the magic words härtefall and sozialklausel.  They could ask for more time based on that they have school age children and low income.  However, it says they need to write a widerspruch to the landlady at least 2 months before then end of their notice so it may already be a bit late in the day.  However, it is not easy to get people evicted in Germany.  If they are unable to leave on Sept. 1st, the landlady first has to take them to court.  They would have the option to defend themselves saying that they have not found affordable housing.  This could buy them time.  Even if they don't defend themselves, it could take the court a few months to agree to an eviction depending how busy they are.  The landlord will then hire a bailiff to evict them.  The bailiff will normally give another 3 weeks for them to move before they swoop in and put them on the street.

 

I am not sure the landlady can charge them extra for not leaving on time but it is her right to raise the rent.  They can object.  If her notice to them is actually a notice to raise the rent, that could negatively affect her claim to eigenbedarf.  She either is planning to move in herself or she isn't.  If they end up moving and she doesn't move in herself, they can file against her for moving costs.

 

Also make sure they got proper notice.  If they were in the apartment for less than 5 years, it's 3 months.  If it was more than 5 years, it's 6.

 

As for the kaution, there is a bürgschaft possible, google bürgschaft mietkaution  Companies that do this offer the tenant to pay a monthly fee and instead they will provide the kaution if needed.  Another option would be to make payments.  Tenants in Germany have the right to pay their kaution in 3 installments.  However, in the Munich area where a landlord can find tenants in a heartbeat, I am not sure how good your chances are to get an apartment if you are using bürgschaft or want to pay in installments when other prospective tenants are offering cash.

 

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They are members of a mietverein. But so far it hasn't helped them too much. 

The owner of the apartment wants to move in the house, so based on this reason (from what I understand) she can kick them out. She has given them 3 months to move out. If they don't they need to pay Entschädigungskosten? (or somethhing that sounds like it) aside from the Miete. 

Than you for all the suggestions. 

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1 hour ago, Proton Anna said:

They are members of a mietverein. But so far it hasn't helped them too much. 

The owner of the apartment wants to move in the house, so based on this reason (from what I understand) she can kick them out. She has given them 3 months to move out. If they don't they need to pay Entschädigungskosten? (or somethhing that sounds like it) aside from the Miete. 

Than you for all the suggestions. 

 

Apparently the landlady can ask for damages if they don't move on time.  They really need legal assistance for this.  Maybe camp out at the mieterverein until they help or get their own lawyer which it sounds like they can't afford or try to get a beratungsschein from the court or try to find an apartment asap as they will likely be moving sooner or later.

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1 minute ago, LeonG said:

 

Apparently the landlady can ask for damages if they don't move on time.  They really need legal assistance for this.  Maybe camp out at the mieterverein until they help or get their own lawyer which it sounds like they can't afford or try to get a beratungsschein from the court or try to find an apartment asap as they will likely be moving sooner or later.

Thank you

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8 hours ago, Proton Anna said:

So back to the second question: as there is no way they can afford a kaution of three months in advance, is there a way that they can receive financial support for this? I heard of something called Miete Ohne Kaution, but I am not sure what that is. Is there any other tips that any of you can give me for them to better organize this move and especially the new kaution (they will get the old Kaution only 3 months after moving out)?

Please see option 3 in here: 

 

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On 7/12/2022, 5:22:40, fraufruit said:

Hopefully, they can move closer to public transportation.

This is what they want. Right now they rely on a car. Which is expensive, and with their recent car accident, they needed to get a new car. However, finding an apartment in Munich is a bitch. Especially for a family that does not earn so much. 

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If you buy a place with a tenant the rule of thumb is 1 year to evict the tenants for "Eigenbedarf". If it's nice & simple.

If the tenant is old, or poor with young children it takes longer and is more complicated.

 

They are getting bad advice or have left it very late because 1 Sep is less than 1 year away.

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18 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

If you buy a place with a tenant the rule of thumb is 1 year to evict the tenants for "Eigenbedarf". If it's nice & simple.

If the tenant is old, or poor with young children it takes longer and is more complicated.

 

They are getting bad advice or have left it very late because 1 Sep is less than 1 year away.

Sorry... I don't understand your reply. This is a family that has lived in this house for longer than 1 year. They were given notice that they have to move out, as the owner of the house wants to move in herself. They were given 3 months. Which is very difficult, as they need to come up with new Kaution for a new apartment, and in Munich it is darn harn hard to find something else, not to mention save 4000 for a kaution (they are 5 people, so they need a large apartment).

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19 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

If you buy a place with a tenant the rule of thumb is 1 year to evict the tenants for "Eigenbedarf".

 

I think that this is where the confusion is. The owners didn't just buy the flat. They have owned it all along and now want to live in it. Maybe.

 

I've never understood how one could find out in an Eigenbedarf situation whether or not the owners did move in. 

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21 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

I've never understood how one could find out in an Eigenbedarf situation whether or not the owners did move in. 

 

They can park close and walk past the building and check if they see the owners or their cars. Check if they put their name on the doorbell and mailbox. Ask the neighbors. If they are friendly with the neighbors now, they can get their contact info and keep in touch.

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27 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

They can park close and walk past the building and check if they see the owners or their cars. Check if they put their name on the doorbell and mailbox. Ask the neighbors. If they are friendly with the neighbors now, they can get their contact info and keep in touch.

Ok, but what about if the owners want to kick out this family (which may be the case, as the lady owner - only one- hates this family). So she moves in for a few months, and then she says she bought another apartment, and then the rerents it again. Isn't that possible?

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Yes.

 

I still don't know how a working person with children would have time to stake out the apartment. Much less know what car the owner drives. Maybe it is in Tiefgarage.

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I only have experience with one person purchasing and the executing Eigenbedarf. But I would imagine the rules are similar for this situation.

You have to start the process. Initially by sending them a (registered) letter claiming Eigenbedarf. They will answer that they have nowhere to go. You then sic a lawyer on them. They claim hardship. You claim hardship back. It is a legal dance that takes 1 year to execute.

 

Of course the owner might just decide to pay them a bribe to move out. It is very hard for a landlord to remove a tenant who doesn't want to leave. Even if not paying rent.

 

If you have been evicted you visit the apartment 1 or 2 years later and check the name on the postbox. Even ring the doorbell. If you find it's rented instead of Eigenbedarf you can get the owner in big trouble. I know the owner has to stay a few years. You can't move in for 2 months then rent it out again.

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2 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

If you have been evicted you visit the apartment 1 or 2 years later and check the name on the postbox.

 

Can't see the postbox if you can't get into the house.

 

The bribe you speak of would be the owner helping with moving costs etc. I have heard of this happening.

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4 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

I only have experience with one person purchasing and the executing Eigenbedarf. But I would imagine the rules are similar for this situation.

You have to start the process. Initially by sending them a (registered) letter claiming Eigenbedarf. They will answer that they have nowhere to go. You then sic a lawyer on them. They claim hardship. You claim hardship back. It is a legal dance that takes 1 year to execute.

 

Of course the owner might just decide to pay them a bribe to move out. It is very hard for a landlord to remove a tenant who doesn't want to leave. Even if not paying rent.

 

If you have been evicted you visit the apartment 1 or 2 years later and check the name on the postbox. Even ring the doorbell. If you find it's rented instead of Eigenbedarf you can get the owner in big trouble. I know the owner has to stay a few years. You can't move in for 2 months then rent it out again.

Thank you so much! This really helps

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29 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Can't see the postbox if you can't get into the house.

 

She said it's a house, not an apartment so the postbox should be outside. Even if not, apartment buildings often have postboxes by the front door. Very common in my area anyway.

 

And if they are busy working, it's not like they have to go daily. They can stop by on a Sunday as they are taking their kids to the park or whatever.

 

35 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

You have to start the process. Initially by sending them a (registered) letter claiming Eigenbedarf. They will answer that they have nowhere to go. You then sic a lawyer on them. They claim hardship. You claim hardship back. It is a legal dance that takes 1 year to execute.

 

They would have had to send that reply letter asap to get that ball rolling.

 

I also have experience of Eigenbedarf. I was given notice of three months to move. The notice did not arrive in a timely manner as the landlord sent it with registered mail while I was on holiday overseas. It was bounced back to him and he hand delivered it to me on something like the 7th of the month. Outside of that I should have been given 6 months because I had lived there more than 5 years. However, I wanted to move and already found a place so I had no reason to fight it.

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