Property Tax Reform and New Tax Returns

[snowingagain 5,189]

OK, have not received a Grunsteuerreform letter for one apartment.  Built and then purchased late 2021, and so was measured and assessed for Grundsteuer.  My better half is convinced this means we do not need to do the survey, as they already have the data.  Any idea if they are right?  Nothing in the GS letter mentions the GSR, or mentions that it is not necessary to submit one.  

[PandaMunich 16,568]

Your better half is wrong.

Everybody who was the owner of German real estate on 01.01.2022 has to file a Grundsteuererklärung by 31.10.2022: https://www.haufe.de/steuern/kanzlei-co/grunsteuerreform-wer-zur-erklaerungsabgabe-verpflichtet-ist_170_561320.html

[Frantic 72]

I bought an house on May 2022 and I am wondering if I have to bother to check if the previous owner will do the Grundsteuererklärung. He is by the way a Steuerberater, it would be very weird telling him "hey have you done the  Grundsteuererklärung  ?"...I guess he should know...my concern is that he will not care (no real reason actually he would not...he looked like me a good person).

 

 

[PandaMunich 16,568]

30 minutes ago, Frantic said:

I bought an house on May 2022 and I am wondering if I have to bother to check if the previous owner will do the Grundsteuererklärung. He is by the way a Steuerberater, it would be very weird telling him "hey have you done the  Grundsteuererklärung  ?"...I guess he should know...

He knows and he will do the Grundsteuererklärung, don't worry.

 

31 minutes ago, Frantic said:

my concern is that he will not care

He will care.

If he does not file that Grundsteuererklärung, he would be fined by the Finanzamt, since he was the owner on 1. January 2022.

[emkay 10,151]

41 minutes ago, Frantic said:

I bought an house on May 2022 and I am wondering if I have to bother to check if the previous owner will do the Grundsteuererklärung. He is by the way a Steuerberater, it would be very weird telling him "hey have you done the  Grundsteuererklärung  ?"...I guess he should know...my concern is that he will not care (no real reason actually he would not...he looked like me a good person).

 

 

You could always ask the previous owner in a roundabout way….as he’s a respected professional, can he let you have a copy of the GS submission for your future reference. 

[MrMiles 12]

I'm filling out the Grundsteuererklärung now. There are two things which are very unclear to me. I'm asked to provide the Miteigentumsanteil an dem Grundstück, and the instructiion say it will be a numerator/denominator, such as "1/2", but my Grundbuch entry says this:

 

449,46/

448/10.000

 

So what is the Miteigentumsanteil? Is it just 448/10.000? Or is the 449,46/ part of it?

 

Secondly, I'm asked to enter the Bodenrichtwert, and I can look this up using the Boris website. The data for my kiez says:

 

3000

-------

W1,5

1688

 

What does this mean? Is the Bodenrichtwert 3000?

 

Thanks for any help.

[MrMiles 12]

1 hour ago, MrMiles said:

I'm filling out the Grundsteuererklärung now. There are two things which are very unclear to me. I'm asked to provide the Miteigentumsanteil an dem Grundstück, and the instructiion say it will be a numerator/denominator, such as "1/2", but my Grundbuch entry says this:

 

449,46/

448/10.000

 

So what is the Miteigentumsanteil? Is it just 448/10.000? Or is the 449,46/ part of it?

 

Secondly, I'm asked to enter the Bodenrichtwert, and I can look this up using the Boris website. The data for my kiez says:

 

3000

-------

W1,5

1688

 

What does this mean? Is the Bodenrichtwert 3000?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

I guess I've found the answers. The Bodenrichtwert is indeed 3000. And I found in my purchase contract that the Miteigentumsanteil is 449,46/10.000. So, I have no idea what that "448" number is referring to.

[snowingagain 5,189]

 

 

33 minutes ago, MrMiles said:

 

I guess I've found the answers. The Bodenrichtwert is indeed 3000. And I found in my purchase contract that the Miteigentumsanteil is 449,46/10.000. So, I have no idea what that "448" number is referring to.

I am lost in my purchase contract for apartment. It only mentions 1 Flustuck, with 3256 m2 (divided by two).   This for 1 bed apartment,  in a block of 6..  Part of a complex of dozens, with shared areas like Tiefgarage and Kinderspielplatz.  But in the Teilungserklarung there is a similar number tp your one (though it does not have a header, so no reference to what it refers to) of 120,500/10000.    But how could that be a Miteigentumsanteil?   

 

In BW things are very easy.  What is annoying is, that they know all the data already.  I am extracting from documents that BW provide.    They already know this stuff. I keep thinking if I pay 30 euros for the Grundbuch info, it will be clear.  But I have a copy from when I bought the place.  And it is anything but clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrMiles 12]

1 hour ago, snowingagain said:

 

 

I am lost in my purchase contract for apartment. It only mentions 1 Flustuck, with 3256 m2 (divided by two).   This for 1 bed apartment,  in a block of 6..  Part of a complex of dozens, with shared areas like Tiefgarage and Kinderspielplatz.  But in the Teilungserklarung there is a similar number tp your one (though it does not have a header, so no reference to what it refers to) of 120,500/10000.    But how could that be a Miteigentumsanteil?   

 

In BW things are very easy.  What is annoying is, that they know all the data already.  I am extracting from documents that BW provide.    They already know this stuff. I keep thinking if I pay 30 euros for the Grundbuch info, it will be clear.  But I have a copy from when I bought the place.  And it is anything but clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do these help at all?

 

https://wundertax.de/app/attachments/property_tax_grundbuch_en.jpg

https://wundertax.de/app/attachments/property_tax_share_belonging_en.jpg

[snowingagain 5,189]

2 hours ago, MrMiles said:

Do these help at all?

 

https://wundertax.de/app/attachments/property_tax_grundbuch_en.jpg

https://wundertax.de/app/attachments/property_tax_share_belonging_en.jpg

Not yet!  Everything so foggy.  But thank you so much.

[snowingagain 5,189]

On 24.9.2022, 15:59:14, MrMiles said:

 

I guess I've found the answers. The Bodenrichtwert is indeed 3000. And I found in my purchase contract that the Miteigentumsanteil is 449,46/10.000. So, I have no idea what that "448" number is referring to.

I worked it out.  The total area of the Flurstück for the apartment complex was 4000 m2.  My Miteigentumsanteil was 235/10000.  So I had to take this fraction of the total, and input the area that belonged to me.   

 

The thing that flumoxxed me intially is the Teilungserklärung was huge and involved 130 apartments, and being unfamiliar with what the numbers meant, and they were not labelled.   

 

So, came back Fehler free on the Elster, and have submitted.   Have now just done the one for our house, much simpler, purchase documents very easy even for stupid me to work out.   I live in BW and they require much less data than some states, so I am lucky.    Thanks for all your help (and also thanks to DeepL). 

[kiplette 8,676]

Well we have had a massive struggle just to erstelle an Elster Konto so I don't hold out much hope for the rest. Hey ho. Onwards and upwards.

 

[kiplette 8,676]

Ok Elster is stupid and rubbish. Any idea if Niedersachsen has a paper form we can just print out and hand in?

 

Now a bit stresses - we had it sorted and now its not, and we can't get in and do it and have to wait for some more snail mail. 

 

These online systems are marvellous until they are awful.

 

[PandaMunich 16,568]

2 hours ago, kiplette said:

Ok Elster is stupid and rubbish. Any idea if Niedersachsen has a paper form we can just print out and hand in?

Now a bit stressed - we had it sorted and now its not, and we can't get in and do it and have to wait for some more snail mail. 

These online systems are marvellous until they are awful.

Here you go, the paper version for Niedersachsen: https://lstn.niedersachsen.de/startseite/steuer/steuervordrucke/grundsteuer/grundsteuer-211736.html

 

Since they explicitly did not put a prior step "Härtefallantrag" (= having to first ask for permission to be allowed to file on paper) into this process in Niedersachsen, you can simply go ahead and file on paper, the Finanzamt has to accept and process it.

Filing on paper is already considered the Härtefallantrag, and this Härtefallantrag has to be approved, no justification on your part needed, see the legal source where they say so themselves below.

 

Just download this document and then search for all instances of "Härtefallantrag": https://www.niedersachsen.de/download/182149/Nds._MBl._Nr._11_2022_vom_21.03.2022_S._325-391.pdf

and you will get this (how to cite this sentence from the legal source: Anwendungserlass zum niedersächsischen Grundsteuergesetz (AENGrStG) zu § 8, A 8 Feststellungsverfahren (12) letzter Satz)

• Die Abgabe einer vollständig ausgefüllten und scanbaren Steuererklärung auf Papier ist als konkludenter Härtefallantrag anzusehen, dem ohne weitere Begründung stillschweigend stattzugeben ist.
• The submission of a fully completed and scannable tax return on paper is to be regarded as an implied hardship request, which is to be tacitly granted without further justification.

 

Since you will be filing on paper, also search for all instances "Papier" in the above document.

For example, you will find this nugget:

• Nur bei Erklärungsabgabe in Papierform:
  Unterschreiben Sie bitte die Erklärung eigenhändig. Für geschäftsunfähige oder beschränkt geschäftsfähige sowie bei nicht natürlichen Personen muss der gesetzliche Vertreter unterschreiben. Sind Ehegatten / eingetragene Lebenspartner gemeinschaftlich Eigentümer des Grundstücks, ist die Unterschrift eines Ehegatten/eingetragenen Lebenspartners ausreichend. Nicht unterschriebene Erklärungen gelten als nicht abgegeben.

• Only if the declaration is submitted in paper form:
  Please sign the declaration personally. For persons with legal incapacity or limited legal capacity as well as for non-natural persons, the legal representative must sign. If spouses/registered civil partners are joint owners of the property, the signature of one spouse/registered civil partner is sufficient. Unsigned declarations shall be deemed not to have been submitted.

[snowingagain 5,189]

I realise now I made a mistake on one of my Grundsteuerreform forms.  I do not think it will make any difference.   I mean the areas and land value were correct.  Any advice as to whether I should submit a correction?   

[PandaMunich 16,568]

Just now, snowingagain said:

I realise now I made a mistake on one of my Grundsteuerreform forms.  I do not think it will make any difference.   I mean the areas and land value were correct.  Any advice as to whether I should submit a correction?   

Just re-submit a corrected one, it will overwrite your prior filing in the Finanzamt's database.

[snowingagain 5,189]

Just now, PandaMunich said:

Just re-submit a corrected one, it will overwrite your prior filing in the Finanzamt's database.

Oh thanks.  Though would prefer I had not noticed.  Ha.  It was a thing with 2 Grundbuch entries both covering the same 2 plots.  Both referred to 1 percent of one Flache and 14 percent of another.   I just entered it (without mentioning Grundbuch) 15 percent of each.   OK will redo when feeling stronger.

[kiplette 8,676]

27 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Here you go

 

Thank you, thank you!

 

One happy postman can go to bed in peace  

 

You are so fab. We will get this paper thing sorted, and then when the stuff arrives in the snail mail, do our best to be good data entry drones, smugly knowing that if it doesn't work out in time, we can just stuff this in an envelope and hand it in. 

[PandaMunich 16,568]

2 hours ago, kiplette said:

We will get this paper thing sorted

All you will need for your Niedersachsen: 

paper property tax return are the following two forms:

1. Grundsteuererklärung (NIGrSt 1) - Download (PDF, 0,27 MB)
2. Anlage Grundstück (NIGrSt 2) - Download (PDF, 0,25 MB)

The instructions how to fill them in are in these files:

1. Anleitung zur Grundsteuererklärung (NIGrSt 1) - Download (PDF, 0,25 MB)
2. Anleitung zur Anlage Grundstück (NIGrSt 2) - Download (PDF, 0,45 MB)

And then there's the "scanning" instruction file, which tells you how to make this paper tax return "scannable", like "please don't cross out anything": 

• Ausfüllhilfe Grundsteuererklärung - Download (PDF, 0,33 MB)

***************************************************************************************************

The following is not part of the property tax return.

But you may also want to do these calculations, to check that the "Grundsteuermessbetrag" that will be written in  the Bescheid that you will get in a few months is correct: https://grundsteuer.de/bundesland/niedersachsen

"Grundsteuer Viewer website that you will need to find out the Lage-Faktor for your Grundsteuermessbetrag calculation: https://grundsteuer-viewer.niedersachsen.de/ 

***************************************************************************************************

Here's the video how to fill in the property tax return for Niedersachsen in ELSTER: https://download.elster.de/download/videos/grundsteuer_ni_ausfuellanleitung.mp4

[kiplette 8,676]

You are amazing.

 

Asked my oldies today, and no-one has yet achieved it 

 

The one who just looked at us as though we were all utterly bonkers because it took him 5 minutes had of course only done the Zensus. 

 

He hasn't even had the first letter for his Grundsteuer, and he is the property owner. The group was split as to whether he should hotfoot it to the Finanzamt and ask, or ignore the whole situation until they get in touch with him.

 

Apparently if you go to fetch a paper version from the Finanzamt they first pressure you into finding a family member, friend or neighbour to do the Elster for you, if you withstand the interrogation, they then make you wait in a cheese-counter number type of queue to get a copy (40 minute wait), which they mark with a secret pencil mark before they hand it over  so we'll just print it off  and post it through the door.