Posted 3 February It could be pressurised so that more than 100% is in the tanks. If the tanks are not full, what else is in them, just air? Years ago there were explosions at chemical works and tank stores. There are lots of safety precautions now, but I am glad I do not live near one. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 40 minutes ago, Dembo said: Empty and full are absolutes. It can't possibly be twice as full as it's either full or it's not. If it's full and 1cc of gas escapes, then it's no longer full. At all. It's 0% full. Absolutely right. Therefore the word "filling" actually doesn't exist, because you cannot be part way towards making something full. It's either full or it's not. Naturally this means we can also do away with the words "emptying", "stopping", "going", "living", "dying". Oh wait... no, you are wrong after all. Very wrong. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 16 hours ago, Fietsrad said: Gasspeicher doppelt so voll wie vorgeschrieben Tanks Plural. In 'headline speak' that means they have 2x as many full tanks as they require. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February On 1/24/2023, 8:00:50, Janx Spirit said: Just got all the meter reads for 2022, checking with 2021: Electricity -31% Heating/hot water: - 36% I'm not laughing all the way to the bank but I am not crying either. Further data analysis suggests an additional 30% saving (very roughly) could be made this year These are very huge numbers. Was your 2021 consumption perhaps extremely big? How much in kWh/yr? My electricity consumption the last 3yr was 2443, 2431, and 2293 kWh, so at most a 6% reduction, 2293/2443 = 0.94 Our baseline consumption, so the stuff that run during night, or if nobody is at home, so big ones like fridge/freezer and Luftungsanlage (it would be bad to turn them off at night), and smaller ones like DSL router and TV standby (it'd be good to turn them on, just too lazy so far) already takes 140W, so 1226 kWh/yr. Better to maintain modest consumption, from which big reductions are difficult, than reducing large consumption. Other than that, reducing consumption is of course better than not to. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 1 hour ago, toBnruG said: Absolutely right. Therefore the word "filling" actually doesn't exist, because you cannot be part way towards making something full. It's either full or it's not. Naturally this means we can also do away with the words "emptying", "stopping", "going", "living", "dying". Oh wait... no, you are wrong after all. Very wrong. You may have a point... ;-) But in most of those you describe the process to reach an end state. Something is only full when you've finished filling and if you break off the filling process it isn't full. Just like if you're in the middle of going to Birmingham you're not in Birmingham and neither are you 50% in Birmingham (don't know why I chose Birmingham). We're all dying but none of us are dead to any extent (unless you died of boredem reading this in which case I'm sorry - RIP). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 50 minutes ago, Gambatte said: These are very huge numbers. Well, we've just opened our gas bill today, and I think we've dropped even more. Between September and end of January this year, we used less gas than we did in January alone last year. We're due to receive a repayment of 3.5k, and monthly payments have been reduced by 300. ...I should probably say that we were one of the thousands completely shafted by Gruenewelt going bust last year, so the drop in monthly payments wasn't unexpected. The drop in gas use is due to turning off almost all of the heating, and living in a world of hot water bottles, blankets on sofas and very thick jumpers. We also have a pellet oven, and have used 100 euros worth of pellets so far this winter. That said, our solar panels for heated water still haven't turned up (ordered 10 months ago), but that should also reduce gas consumption this year. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February OK, clear. How old the house, how big, and how much kWh/yr? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 3 hours ago, dstanners said: Well, we've just opened our gas bill today, and I think we've dropped even more. Between September and end of January this year, we used less gas than we did in January alone last year. We're due to receive a repayment of 3.5k, and monthly payments have been reduced by 300. ...I should probably say that we were one of the thousands completely shafted by Gruenewelt going bust last year, so the drop in monthly payments wasn't unexpected. The drop in gas use is due to turning off almost all of the heating, and living in a world of hot water bottles, blankets on sofas and very thick jumpers. We also have a pellet oven, and have used 100 euros worth of pellets so far this winter. That said, our solar panels for heated water still haven't turned up (ordered 10 months ago), but that should also reduce gas consumption this year. Just for comparison and to give you some idea, I can estimate that the 300L tank of hot water in the basement takes around 5000KW to heat throughout the year using gas which is exactly one quarter of the 20000KW what the house consumes in gas. So roughly a quarter for water, most of the rest for heating, and a tiny amount for the gas hob. Hopefully the solar water heating works well. Be aware you can get combined solar electrical and hot water heating panels now. Especially in the summer the solar PV panels get too hot to touch, where as they produce the optimal amount of PV energy when under 25C. Thus the combined panels flow a liquid down to a heat exchanger which collects the surplus heat for producing hot water. Be aware, solar PV and combined Solar PV/Thermal only effectively work Spring/Summer/Autumn and produce very little energy in winter. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 1 hour ago, scook17 said: I can estimate that the 300L tank of hot water in the basement takes around 5000KW to heat throughout the year using gas How do you calculate this? We are considering a new gas heated hot water tank for our 2 adult, 1 bathroom house. Currently there are 2 options: 120L 300L with Thermal panels 300L is clearly too large for us, but does allow us to take advantage of PV. However I am not sure if it would be financially (or even environmentally) worthwhile when we have to heat so much extra water. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 5 hours ago, Dembo said: You may have a point... ;-) But in most of those you describe the process to reach an end state. Something is only full when you've finished filling and if you break off the filling process it isn't full. Just like if you're in the middle of going to Birmingham you're not in Birmingham and neither are you 50% in Birmingham (don't know why I chose Birmingham). We're all dying but none of us are dead to any extent (unless you died of boredem reading this in which case I'm sorry - RIP). Birmingham? I used to love taking the train thru there and hearing the West-Midlands accent, like home.😃 .. I wonder how many people keep energy consumption figures for ten years or more. They could vary quite a lot depending on weather and on what devices one acquires, or disacquires. In 2010 there was so much snow, no cycling for nearly two months, I must have used the heating a lot. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 30 minutes ago, agathaaa said: How do you calculate this? We are considering a new gas heated hot water tank for our 2 adult, 1 bathroom house. Currently there are 2 options: 120L 300L with Thermal panels 300L is clearly too large for us, but does allow us to take advantage of PV. However I am not sure if it would be financially (or even environmentally) worthwhile when we have to heat so much extra water. Actually I wanted a immediate gas heating solution, similar to what you have in the UK a so called 'Combi boiler'. With such a solution, the water is heated only when used, so you don't have a tank which is mostly just cooling down all the time. Due to the environmental regulations, I was forced to have a 300L tank and a heat pump. However, the tank selected has a secondary heating loop, for solar PV or gas, so can still be heated with gas. So in spring/summer/autumn when I get free electricity from the PV panels, I use the heat pump, and in winter switch over to gas. How did I measure? Well initially I used only gas and never used the heat pump I didn't want, but was forced to install to keep the environmentalist happy. Then for one year I used exclusively the heat pump and measured it's electrical usage. The gas usage dropped by 5000KWh, but the mains electricity usage increased considerably as the heat pump is designed to run 24/7. In subsequent years I experimented with how long the pump needs to run to generate the correct water temperature and opted for a spring/summer/autumn schedule for the heat pump and switch it off entirely come winter. This way it's powered by the PV electricity mostly during these seasons and runs obviously during sunlight hours. Was this a good choice? Well at the time gas was one sixth the price of electricity, then just half, and now it's around one third, having recently fallen back again. My heat pump generates about 3x it's electricity consumption in heat. Newer ones make better claims. So cost wise, it's equal if you consider grid electrical prices. You get paid almost nothing for exported solar PV, so at those prices, it makes sense to always use solar PV if you have 'spare' solar. This is guaranteed in summer and mostly the case in Sprint and Autumn, but usually never in winter. There are other options than tanks, such as the combi boiler I actually wanted, or electrical shower (needs high current wiring). Given the choice again, as I opted for PV panels, I would have gone for the combined PV and thermal panels. Given a free choice, I would have picked the combi boiler as I can see the tank (bought 2017) just leaches heat overnight into the otherwise cold basement room. So given a tank, get the best insulated one possible. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 14 minutes ago, scook17 said: Due to the environmental regulations, I was forced to have a 300L tank and a heat pump. However, the tank selected has a secondary heating loop, for solar PV or gas, so can still be heated with gas. So in spring/summer/autumn when I get free electricity from the PV panels, I use the heat pump, and in winter switch over to gas. never used the heat pump I didn't want, but was forced to install to keep the environmentalist happy. Which regulations are those? Is the environmentalist your partner? We recently bought a 50's house with attached barn. Currently there is a gas boiler for heating via radiators, and a separate gas boiler for hot water. The house is not insulated other than double glazing windows which are around 20 years old. Attic floor insulation will be going in soon. Considering from 2024 all new gas boiler installations need to include 60% renewable energy, we are installing a new gas solution this year. This will include a new boiler and a hot water tank. I'm not sure why the company didn't recommend a combi boiler; I thought perhaps they are not so popular in Germany. There are hot water tanks that have integrated heat pumps that use the air from the room they are installed in (in our case the barn), however these aren't available for 6-8 months. I hadn't considered an electric shower, however considering hot baths are a necessity for my wife, a tank is probably the best option. What is the model 300L tank you have? Having a tank that works with both gas and PV/Thermal sounds ideal for us. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 8 hours ago, Gambatte said: These are very huge numbers. Was your 2021 consumption perhaps extremely big? How much in kWh/yr? My electricity consumption the last 3yr was 2443, 2431, and 2293 kWh, so at most a 6% reduction, 2293/2443 = 0.94 Our baseline consumption, so the stuff that run during night, or if nobody is at home, so big ones like fridge/freezer and Luftungsanlage (it would be bad to turn them off at night), and smaller ones like DSL router and TV standby (it'd be good to turn them on, just too lazy so far) already takes 140W, so 1226 kWh/yr. Better to maintain modest consumption, from which big reductions are difficult, than reducing large consumption. Other than that, reducing consumption is of course better than not to. I used to be a bath fanatic, like nearly every day, so I cut that to twice a month and shower instead. Reduced the living room temperature to 18C and don't heat the bedroom or kitchen. With electricity, LED bulbs and switching off all unnecessary lighting, finding out which appliances draw the most energy and act accordingly Stopped using my old audio / video surround that would to heat up like an oven, stopped using my oven and got an air fryer, also I switch off appliances that run on stand-by at the mains, make sure the refrigerator isn't unnecessarily full / cold. Stuff like that 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 3 February 2 hours ago, agathaaa said: Considering from 2024 all new gas boiler installations need to include 60% renewable energy, we are installing a new gas solution this year. This will include a new boiler and a hot water tank. I'm not sure why the company didn't recommend a combi boiler; I thought perhaps they are not so popular in Germany. Yes, they are not popular here. You need a certain percentage renewable energy and despite PV panels the house did not meet the percentage requirements. The air source heat pump brought us up to this standard. With hindsight, I would have just installed more PV panels as I would not be forced into having something I didn't want and cost a lot of money. However, looking back I am not, sufficiently unhappy that I would change it. At least now the basement has all the ventilation options needed. 2 hours ago, agathaaa said: There are hot water tanks that have integrated heat pumps that use the air from the room they are installed in (in our case the barn), however these aren't available for 6-8 months. I hadn't considered an electric shower, however considering hot baths are a necessity for my wife, a tank is probably the best option. What is the model 300L tank you have? Having a tank that works with both gas and PV/Thermal sounds ideal for us. The tank was from Vaillant. They make combined heat pump tanks with an additional internal heating loop for other heat sources. This could be gas, solar, electrical heating element, pellet stove etc. It draws the air from outside, and pumps air conditioned air back outside. With some adaptations you can route that air conditioned air into the house in the summer to help with keeping the place cool. Especially useful in a barn where the heat will accumulate in the apex of the roof. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 6 February On 03/02/2023, 13:44:57, Gambatte said: How old the house, how big, and how much kWh/yr? Right, here goes. I had to check the bill for what I hope is the relevant info. For the year ending 30/1/2022, we used 35,000kwh. For the year ending 30/1/2023 we have used a fraction over 20,000. The big drop seems to be that between September to the end of Jan (which is when we made a deliberate effort to reduce consumption), we only used 6k. The house has is roughly 240m2. It was built in 1995, and is a effectively a log cabin on top of a concrete flat (connected via internal staircase). Specifically, this is a Finnish block house (the logs are about 25cm square, with a thin layer of insulation between each log). 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 6 February Wow these are big numbers. We use 9000 kWh/yr for gas heating, but our house is 117qm and built 2019. Mate of mine lives in a 80yr old house, maybe 150qm, and consume 4000 kWh/yr gas. I'm not expert but I think your numbers make sense. Sorry off topic, I'm just nosy, but why do you live in such a huge house? My wife grew up in 70qm apartment, Japan, family of 4, crazy enough each child had its own room, not sure they ever felt lack of space. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 6 February My own consumption (gas): 2020: 21.7 MWh 2021: 22.4 MWh 2022: 16.5 MWh For a 190 m2 detached house built in 1990 (well kept and insolated), two adults, two children. The electricity consumption remained constant at around 3600 kWh/year So, we reduced our gas consumption 25% by having our house at around 19°C und turning the floor heating on a few weeks later than usual -> we heat with wood when really needed. but the wood consumption has so far been in €€ terms marginal. In the last weeks of the year we also turned the heating on to higher temperatures because of the price cap discussions.. I didn't want to limit my 2022 consumption too much. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 6 February 2 hours ago, Gambatte said: Mate of mine lives in a 80yr old house, maybe 150qm, and consume 4000 kWh/yr gas. Should that be 40,000? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 6 February 2 hours ago, Gambatte said: Wow these are big numbers. Agreed, but to my non-expert mind, if you are now using 9,000kwh for a newly insulated 117qm house, @mtbiking has reduced his consumption to 16,500kwh for a 190qm house, then my reduction to 20,000kwh for a 240qm house seems to be in a similar ball park. 2 hours ago, Gambatte said: I'm just nosy, but why do you live in such a huge house? No problem. I'm always happy to talk about the glorious Eifel (Germany's best kept secret). I live in a small village in the national park, where this house-size is average at most (although the garden is above average size). Part of moving here was for the benefit of having lots of space, and it was the plot/location more than the house which sold me. You are correct that we don't "need" it, but it is nice, particularly as I work from home. So, here was my view last week (the shed is in the process of being replaced!): 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 6 February 3 hours ago, Gambatte said: We use 9000 kWh/yr for gas heating, but our house is 117qm and built 2019. Mate of mine lives in a 80yr old house, maybe 150qm, and consume 4000 kWh/yr gas. Something wrong with your numbers there I think. 3 hours ago, Gambatte said: Sorry off topic, I'm just nosy, but why do you live in such a huge house? Because he can? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
