Habeck claims anyone could quite easily use 10% less energy

757 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

The fridge cycling is irrelevant to my point, but yes, fridges cycle. 

 

As I understand it motors cause a momentary spike in demand as they switch on, and then settle down. So it could be that although the 50W your fridge needs is below what's available, that spike takes it over the top and it's never able to start up before the power dies.

 

There was a Robert Llewellyn video where he explained that despite having two Tesla batteries and lots of solar panels he still lost everything in a power cut, and then went on to get the extra box installed to make it work. It's that way because you can't have power from your house going out to the grid when the mains is off as you'd potentially electrocute anyone working on the mains and so you need something extra that can 100% isolate your wiring from the mains when necessary. There's also the question of producing 50Hz when there's no reference  and then getting back into sync when the mains is back - not sure but this obviously sounds like a more complicated bit of kit than your typical inverter.  

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29 minutes ago, Dembo said:

 

As I understand it motors cause a momentary spike in demand as they switch on, and then settle down. So it could be that although the 50W your fridge needs is below what's available, that spike takes it over the top and it's never able to start up before the power dies.

 

Yes, this is true as well, and same goes for plenty of devices, the initial peak is much higher than the normal consume.  But that is irrelevant to what I was trying to explain.  If you use inverters that's why they have a initial peak much higher than their sustained peak.

 

My whole point is that a solar panel does not produce electricity in a steady way, so it can be trusted to run devices in the long term with no battery and no grid.

 

29 minutes ago, Dembo said:

 

There was a Robert Llewellyn video where he explained that despite having two Tesla batteries and lots of solar panels he still lost everything in a power cut, and then went on to get the extra box installed to make it work. It's that way because you can't have power from your house going out to the grid when the mains is off as you'd potentially electrocute anyone working on the mains and so you need something extra that can 100% isolate your wiring from the mains when necessary. There's also the question of producing 50Hz when there's no reference  and then getting back into sync when the mains is back - not sure but this obviously sounds like a more complicated bit of kit than your typical inverter.  

 

 

Yes.  This is what I was trying to point out, plenty of people assume that because you have solar you will have power in a blackout.  Even people who own solar systems (and didn't have their first blackout).

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The Fronius basic emergency supply does not look like it relies on batteries. It says the standard inverter can supply one single phase socket with ca 3kW of power "without any additional equipment". The same page also lists their "full fat" whole house backup system that does indeed rely on a connected battery and can drive 3 phase appliances (though most 3 phase appliances will draw so much current you will surely empty any battery in minutes):

 

Quote

BASIS-NOTSTROMVERSORGUNG MIT DEM PV POINT
Die Fronius GEN24 Plus Wechselrichter besitzen eine innovative Basis-Notstromversorgung, die keine aufwendigen Zusatzinstallationen bedingt. Dabei handelt es sich um eine im Notstromfall versorgte Steckdose, mit der einphasige Verbraucher bis zu 3 kW betrieben werden können. 

Damit können Anlagenbesitzer beispielsweise ganz einfach ein Handy oder einen Laptop laden und bleiben während eines Stromausfalls erreichbar und informiert.

VORTEILE
automatische Aktivierung bei Netzausfall
Keine aufwendigen Zusatzinstallationen notwendig
Versorgung von 1-phasigen Verbrauchern bis zu 3 kW

 

To be honest this feature would make zero difference to my decision as to whether or not to buy. Power cuts here (apart from when they are installing fibre optics) are vanishingly rare and are resolved in minutes usually. Before they started digging up for fibre optics here I think we experienced one power cut in the last 5 years and it was fixed in less than an hour.

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4 hours ago, Krieg said:

It's that way because you can't have power from your house going out to the grid when the mains is off as you'd potentially electrocute anyone working on the mains and so you need something extra that can 100% isolate your wiring from the mains when necessary.

 

Don't be so silly, no emergency power system, whether it be solar panels, battery or some large diesel emergency generator for a hospital will ever try and power the grid and even if they did it would be an effective short circuit  with all those households and there appliances and lights etc still connected so no one working on the wires is going to be electrocuted by that! A very simple relay setup can switch over to a emergency power system if the mains fail and depending on its functionality switch back to the mains when it recovers, though sometimes that may be a manual operation. Not sure about how you would handle solar panels and an inverter if it was only able to get a reference for 50hz from the mains but it is certainly no big deal to generate a reference itself and then shut it down temporarily and re-sync to the mains when they came back on, but I suspect much of that is already built in anyway as they must be able to isolate from the mains or at least switch off in the event of a power cut!

 

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

To be honest this feature would make zero difference to my decision as to whether or not to buy. Power cuts here (apart from when they are installing fibre optics) are vanishingly rare and are resolved in minutes usually. Before they started digging up for fibre optics here I think we experienced one power cut in the last 5 years and it was fixed in less than an hour.

 

I always thought that until there was an freezing rain storm followed by a blizzard one winter , when I was living out on the land in the Algau, the extra weight of the ice on the overhead power lines bought them down, pylons and all in the entire area and it was many days before power was restored, no heat either, oil fired but electric pump and no Kachelofen, no worries about the contents of the fridge though we just put them outside in the snow!:)

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19 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Don't be so silly, no emergency power system, whether it be solar panels, battery or some large diesel emergency generator for a hospital will ever try and power the grid and even if they did it would be an effective short circuit  with all those households and there appliances and lights etc still connected so no one working on the wires is going to be electrocuted by that! A very simple relay setup can switch over to a emergency power system if the mains fail and depending on it functionality switch back to the mains when it recovers, though sometimes that may be a manual operation. Not sure about how you would handle solar panels and an inverter if it was only able to get a reference for 50hz from the mains but it is certainly no big deal to generate a reference itself and then shut it down temporarily and re-sync to the mains when they came back on, but I suspect much of that is already built in anyway as they must be able to isolate from the mains or at least switch off in the event of a power cut!

 

I'm sure it was me you were quoting ;-)

 

I wasn't suggesting it'd try to power 20 million homes, but it could be just your house that's been disconnected and so anyone working on reconnecting you could get a shock.  I agree that something with some relays would be pretty simple, but probably most installations aren't going to that extra expense of the equipment or the wiring required.

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It is a bit more complicated.  The problem is not keeping your house power operating, the problem is avoiding interference with the grid.  That's why all home solar installations everywhere has to comply with the international norm known as "Anti Islanding", the proper name is norm IEC 61683.   The inverter disconnects form the grid milliseconds after the grid goes down.

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3 hours ago, Dembo said:

I wasn't suggesting it'd try to power 20 million homes, but it could be just your house that's been disconnected and so anyone working on reconnecting you could get a shock.  I agree that something with some relays would be pretty simple, but probably most installations aren't going to that extra expense of the equipment or the wiring required.

 

Sorry the quote was from you and not @Krieg but he has confirmed my assumption with the "Anti Islanding" EC 61683 regulation in the previous post.

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For the data geeks, if you dig around the DWD site, you will find the weather station data for Germany for the last hundred years or so.

And one data measurement is sun.

https://www.dwd.de/DE/leistungen/cdc/climate-data-center.html?nn=17626

https://opendata.dwd.de/climate_environment/CDC/observations_germany/climate/hourly/sun/recent/

Naturally you can't say what the sun shine will be tomorrow, but if you have a lot of data, you can do a pretty good estimate of what is likely for a time of year.

In a given data set, this is what you find.

air_temperature/                                   26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
cloud_type/                                        26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
cloudiness/                                        26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
dew_point/                                         26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
extreme_wind/                                      26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
moisture/                                          06-Jan-2021 09:00                   -
precipitation/                                     14-Nov-2018 08:11                   -
pressure/                                          26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
soil_temperature/                                  26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
solar/                                             24-Jan-2023 08:41                   -
sun/                                               26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
visibility/                                        26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
weather_phenomena/                                 30-Apr-2021 14:40                   -
wind/                                              26-Apr-2021 10:53                   -
wind_synop/   
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Just got all the meter reads for 2022, checking with 2021:

 

Electricity -31%

Heating/hot water: - 36%

 

I'm not laughing all the way to the bank but I am not crying either.

 

Further data analysis suggests an additional  30% saving (very roughly) could be made this year :) 

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4 minutes ago, Janx Spirit said:

Just got all the meter reads for 2022, checking with 2021:

 

Electricity -31%

Heating/hot water: - 36%

 

I'm not laughing all the way to the bank but I am not crying either.

 

Further data analysis suggests an additional  30% saving (very roughly) could be made this year :) 

 

Except with how prices are you´ve saved money but will probably still end up paying more than you did previously.

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12 hours ago, Janx Spirit said:

Just got all the meter reads for 2022, checking with 2021:

Electricity -31%

Heating/hot water: - 36%

I'm not laughing all the way to the bank but I am not crying either.

Further data analysis suggests an additional  30% saving (very roughly) could be made this year :) 

 

I got the bill for EON yesterday for grid power usage:

 

2020: 3352KWh + 2303KWh Solar (35% of solar production)

2021: 2962 + 2382 Solar (38% of production)

2022: 3046 + 2631 Solar (40% of production)

Average: 3120 KWh grid usage.

EON's predicted usage: 3600!

 

BTW, gas heating. Water for 2022 was mostly heat pump run during the day. Electric oven. Gas hob.

 

I have managed to increase the % of solar energy usefully deployed, by load shifting (putting the dishwasher / washer / oven on during the day) and by experimenting with some cheap batteries to cover night power of certain devices + timers to make sure stuff is turned off automatically.

 

I am curious, -31% electricity usage? A further 30%, so you plan to use just 40% of 2 years ago. How exactly?

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On 1/19/2023, 1:48:49, Krieg said:

Example:  You take a single 100w solar panel in a sunny summer day, you set it up at the best angle and you use a MPPT solar controller.  So you have now the most optimized setup.  When the sky is clear you will produce around 80w, maybe 90w if it is a high quality panel.  Now you connect a fridge what needs 50w.   You would think your setup is enough, but in reality it is not.   Clouds will move around and your system will produce anything from just a couple of watts to again back to the max.  Once your production is below 50w the fridge will go off.   The more the clouds move the more you will have this effect.   And clouds move a lot.

 

The weather site I found most useful, as it show's % cloud cover.

https://www.wunderground.com/forecast/de/graggenau

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On 1/16/2023, 3:03:12, Gambatte said:

I am not sure.

Electricians I came across in my life are great folks and excellent at all they do, for example installing Akku etc. (actually not every elctrician can, needs specific additional qualification, which he could well have)

But their skillset I'm afraid doesn't always include collecting data and running math. In fact, I bet it almost never does.

 

I could be wrong, but a full 24kWh would last you MUCH longer than 4hr.

And most likely, depending of course when the blackout takes place, the 24kWh would be (almost) completely empty at the start of the blackout.

 

On average, we consume 2400 / 365 =  less than 7 kWh/day

The MOST we ever consumed in the last 3yr in a single day was 10kWh, it was the day I made 100 jam jars (cooking, sterilizing all glass jars in the oven, then running them again in boiling water once filled and closed).

100 jam jars takes a very very huge amount of energy.

 

Of course this is my case, everybody's different.

 

I happened to pop around last week. Yes, 24KWh. He has heating, hot water, cooking, EV, everything basically from electricity. Five adults live in the house.

Yes, basically he built himself a power wall. Uses some raspberry pi devices to collect the data and was showing me the plots of the solar and battery usage, as I too thought 24KWH was just way too much. 

 

Not everything is perfect. I asked about running off gird. He disconnected the grid from the house. As someone mentioned, the solar needs a grid current, so both solar inverters immediately went off, as they detected a change between battery and grid power. He reset them (push the button on the front) and they re-synced to the battery and started to process the PV power again and battery starts to charge. Not exactly a seamless switch, but sufficient for the odd black out. Requires a 3 phase battery BTW, so the cheap 'solar generator' won't cut it for such as use case as it's single phase.

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It was announced government support for heating oil users, but like it happens often, the rules to get the support are crap.  It seems you will have to prove your total bill for 2022 was higher than 2021.  The problem?  Usually people fill up their tanks, but because the prices in 2022 were so high, plenty of people (like me) bought just enough to top up the balance and survive the winter, so effectively the bill from 2022 is lower than the one from 2021.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Usually people fill up their tanks, but because the prices in 2022 were so high, plenty of people (like me) bought just enough to top up the balance and survive the winter, so effectively the bill from 2022 is lower than the one from 2021.

 

So you are saying you want support from the government to pay for the 2022  increase in heating oil cost when you actually paid out less than in 2021 because you used the reserves you had and paid for at the time before the high prices in 2022? Well done you for having the foresight to have those reserves which have saved you a lot of money but I don't understand why you would expect a hand out from the government, particularly as the price for heating oil has now dropped considerably from the highs of last year.

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4 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

So you are saying you want support from the government to pay for the 2022  increase in heating oil cost when you actually paid out less than in 2021 because you used the reserves you had and paid for at the time before the high prices in 2022? Well done you for having the foresight to have those reserves which have saved you a lot of money but I don't understand why you would expect a hand out from the government, particularly as the price for heating oil has now dropped considerably from the highs of last year.

 

I don't need any support myself, I am only pointing out how the rules are bad designed and the help normally ends up in the hands of people who do not need it.  

 

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17 hours ago, Krieg said:

It was announced government support for heating oil users, but like it happens often, the rules to get the support are crap.  It seems you will have to prove your total bill for 2022 was higher than 2021.  The problem?  Usually people fill up their tanks, but because the prices in 2022 were so high, plenty of people (like me) bought just enough to top up the balance and survive the winter, so effectively the bill from 2022 is lower than the one from 2021.

 

Happened to notice this morning the price, to consumers, for gas had dropped. However I was on the 'old' version and had to switch manually to the new rate.

Presumably the price of natural oil has also dropped and now might be a good time to buy oil.

I predict the war will kick off again very soon so someone who has capacity to pre-purchase oil, it might be a good idea to buy if the price is good currently.

 

I lived in an old house once a long time ago. Honestly oil was a pain. Noisy generator. Absolute PITA if it ever actually runs out. At the time there was no heat pumps, and I just accepted that was what was installed. Given what I know now, I would look for alternative options, if at all possible.

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