The War in Ukraine

2,641 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, jeba said:

Yes, I do. Not least because my grandfather told me that he could understand his fellow German soldiers who murdered Greek civilians in Crete, since they suspected them of being partisans. If the war goes on and Putin and the Russians should be under enough pressure, there is a real risk Putin will escalate the violence and e.g. order carpet bombing etc.

But Greece capitulated!!! It did exactly what you said the Ukrainian government should do, yet partisan activity continued as it would undoubtedly continue in Ukraine even if Zelensky followed your terrible "advice". The Russians would just have much easier access to millions more civilians to murder with their hands tied behind their backs. I'm a little gobsmacked at how naive you are. These are brutal animals we are dealing with here.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Naïve, maybe. Or not. He draws on personal family experience. You think differently when it s your own skin. And that of your kith and kin. 

 

Not saying I agree. But can see where he s coming from. It would be a pity if he stopped posting and we only got one perspective. We don t just wanna hear what we wanna hear, right ?

 

The Germans, I am sure, have far more idea of what brutal animals are than those who did not experience war on their own territory.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, optimista said:

Naïve, maybe. Or not. He draws on personal family experience. You think differently when it s your own skin. And that of your kith and kin. 

 

Not saying I agree. But can see where he s coming from. It would be a pity if he stopped posting and we only got one perspective. We don t just wanna hear what we wanna hear, right ?

 

The Germans, I am sure, have far more idea of what brutal animals are than those who did not experience war on their own territory.

Jeba didn't live through any war. 

 

He just doesn't want his investments to tank.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, El Jeffo said:

jeba still thinks the Ukrainians should just lie back and think of capitulating.

He believes letting the Nazis carry on the holocaust was better than the SWW so if a few Ukrainians die or have to live under an autocratic regime or are oppressed for the rest of their lives then so be it as long as he can take what he thinks is the moral high ground but is really him hiding his lack of empathy for anyone but himself.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, optimista said:

But can see where he s coming from.

I could,until his thoughts on the holocaust came out.

 

21 minutes ago, optimista said:

The Germans, I am sure, have far more idea of what brutal animals are than those who did not experience war on their own territory.

Seriously?

There are many countries that have experienced war in their own country since the Germans did.Also how many Germans are around today that actually experienced and can remember the SWW.

Also just because there hasn´t been genocide on such a scale since the holocaust it doesn´t mean it hasn´t happened.

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60981228

Ukraine has started a war crimes investigation after bodies of civilians were found strewn on the streets as Russian troops pulled out of areas around the capital Kyiv.

Bucha and Irpin were symbols of resistance to the Russian invasion, but they are now becoming synonymous with the war's most serious abuses.

Ukrainian authorities say the bodies of 410 civilians have been found in the areas around Kyiv so far.

Russia, without evidence, says the photos and videos are "a staged performance" by Ukraine.

But what officials and reporters have seen there in the wake of the Russian withdrawal has left many in deep shock.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeba cites his grandfather. You dismiss him unfairly. 

 

I also remember my parents' and grandparents' descriptions of the war. My FIL on the other hand, a KZ guard, revealed very little. And that is when you are on really sinister territory.

 

Other experts in non-sequitur, who will remain nameless, contunue to have reading comprehension difficulties. But hey, that s TT.

 

So now we have atrocities. How will NATO be able to stand by and not intervene ?

 

Yugloslavia... Afghanistan... Iraq... regime change.

 

Enola Gay. 

 

Pardon my vocabulary by the way.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wulfrun said:

Russia, without evidence, says the photos and videos are "a staged performance" by Ukraine.

 

Yes, shackling one's hands behind one's back and then shooting oneself in the back of the head is quite the performance indeed.

 

Plenty of evidence of looting and rape, too.

 

My days of thinking that Russian "soldiers" are nothing more than criminal scum are certainly coming to a middle.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Russian soldiers have always been this way, they are generally peasant thugs. If you want a true insight into the Russian soldier read The Fall of Berlin by Anthony Beevor. They haven't by all accounts changed much.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

The Russians would just have much easier access to millions more civilians to murder with their hands tied behind their backs.

How do you know that? As I said: You can´t paint all with the same brush. By your logic you could say the same about the US army (My Lai), the French army (Algeria) and probably most others. It seems more likely to me that it would end with Donbas/Luhansk becoming Russian puppet states and the Russian army retreating like they did in Georgia.

If Putin feels cornered though, he´ll not shy back from carpet bombing like we´ve seen in Aleppo or Grozny.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jeba said:

 

How do you know that? As I said: You can´t paint all with the same brush. By your logic you could say the same about the US army (My Lai), the French army (Algeria) and probably most others. It seems more likely to me that it would end with Donbas/Luhansk becoming Russian puppet states and the Russian army retreating like they did in Georgia.

If Putin feels cornered though, he´ll not shy back from carpet bombing like we´ve seen in Aleppo or Grozny.

Look at the historical evidence.

 

During the revolution, the Red army carried out atrocities, no doubt the whites did as well. Then during the Russo Polish war of 1920, the Russians killed a high number of Polish officers, this was also seen with the Katyn Massacre of 1940. Then we have the starvation of the Ukrainian population known as Hodomor. Take your own countrymen, 91,000 odd were marched out of Stalingrad with only 5,000 returning home as late as 1955. As I said, read Anthony Beevor's "Fall of Berlin", some of the testimony is rather graphic. Then you have Afghanistan and Syria, they were not exactly known for following modern conventions on war in either country. A bunch of thugs led by a thug.

 

As for others, of course every army has carried out atrocities, what is different with the Russian Army is the scale and number carried out.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60525350

US President Joe Biden has called for Russian President Vladimir Putin to face trial over the killings of civilians in Bucha.

"This guy is brutal," Biden said, adding that he's seeking to bring in more sanctions against the Kremlin.

The US president previously caused outrage in Moscow when he first accused Putin of war crimes last month.

"Well the truth of the matter, you saw what happened in Bucha - he is a war criminal... but we have to gather all the detail so this can have a war crimes trial," Biden said.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, optimista said:

Jeba cites his grandfather. You dismiss him unfairly. 

I dismiss him because he thinks letting the Nazis carry on killing Jews, Romanies et etc was better because "not as many of them would have died as died stopping it".

He´s a racist. Well to me anyone who doesn´t find a problem with using the N word unless it´s in earshot of them is a racist.

He admits he wouldn´t try and save his wife (who he apparently loves more than anything) if it meant the chance of them both dying.

I also dismiss him because he is unbelievably naive. Anyone who thinks a dictator stops once he has what he wants needs to wake up and smell the real world.

I think he referenced his grandmother but as was shown at the time many people had the same experience.

 

Do you have a problem with genocide if it costs many lives to stop it?

Would you be ok with people of your nationality being wiped out because it would cost many lives to stop it?

Do you think Hitler would have settled for what he had if he´d been left to his own devices?

 

War should always be the last resort. However, there are times when you have to resort to it.

Also, don´t forget the Ukrainians aren´t fighting the usual sort of war they´re trying to stop an invasion, they´re not attacking they´re defending themselves.

 

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, French bean said:

Look at the historical evidence.

Let´s not forget though that history is always written by the winners.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Let´s not forget though that history is always written by the winners.

Yes and then revised as time goes on. A classic is Gen. Hague of WW1 fame and the Lions led by Donkeys. He was chastised as uncaring with no regard for the well being for his soldiers. The revisionist view is that he did actually care and there is evidence to support it. On one occasion he was on horse back and saw an injured soldier, he ensured that there was adequate care for the man and that he was taken to a field station ASAP. The Somme was not his choice. He made it known that the army wasn't ready but was politically overridden so that the French could have some relief at Verdun and finally prior to the German Spring Offensive in March 1918 he tried to counter Lloyd George's instruction to reduce the number of divisions in France because he knew that would be more damaging if the Germans attacked. It was also under Hague that the All Arms Attack was developed. The final victory was crafted by I believe by a Canadian and an Australian General but Hague had the foresight to let them come up with the plan and run with it.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now