The War in Ukraine

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19 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Good news

 

West to send ‘more lethal aid’ to Ukraine, UK defence secretary says

 

West to send ‘more lethal aid’ to Ukraine, UK defence secretary says | Ukraine | The Guardian

 

Ukraine was also “looking for armoured vehicles of some types, not tanks necessarily, but certainly protective vehicles, and more anti-air,” Wallace said. “All of this will be forthcoming as result of this conference.”

 

This is the only way it will end badly for the Russian solders. in the Dombas area 

 

Arming the Ukrainian is the best way to help them 

The UK has a lot of these types of vehicles left over from Afghanistan so would be useful.

https://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/reconnaissance-vehicles/

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3 hours ago, murphaph said:

The Russians tied these guys hand behind their backs and executed them you fool. They clearly posed no military threat tied up and were not killed in combat or even as collateral damage! They were defenceless and murdered in cold blood. In your scenario, the Russian army would have free rein to execute civilians like this throughout the whole country!! You think an army that executes civilians would treat them better because their country had surrendered? Did you not learn anything about what your country did in countries it occupied, even the ones that surrendered?

One report states that some victims were shot in the back of the head

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8 hours ago, keith2011 said:

It seems the Chinese have forgotten that the Opium Wars were the result of their policy of only excepting silver for payment of their exports. It seems to me like it is much the same now they want it all but when they have accumulated all the worlds wealth it will no longer be worth anything!

I think there’s more to that story than just trade imbalance. 
Essentially, the British spent all their silver buying silk, porcelain and tea from the Chinese but the Chinese saw nothing they wanted to buy at Harrods. So the British facilitated the narco trade and when the Chinese tried to stop it, they got their doors kicked in. It was a smash and grab job that lasted about a century and is the seed of modern day Chinese Nationalism. If you take even a cursory glance at the movies they’ve produced over the decades, you will see that it still rankles deep in the collective psyche.

A lot of the push back we now see from Africa, Asia, South America, etc can be traced to Europe’s and America’s (recent) imperial past. Quite a sense of roosters coming home to roost, I would say.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Opium-Wars

Quote

The Opium Wars arose from China’s attempts to suppress the opium trade. Foreign traders (primarily British) had been illegally exporting opium mainly from Indiato China since the 18th century, but that trade grew dramatically from about 1820. The resulting widespread addiction in China was causing serious social and economic disruption there. In spring 1839 the Chinese government confiscated and destroyed more than 20,000 chests of opium—some 1,400 tons of the drug—that were warehoused at Canton (Guangzhou) by British merchants. The antagonismbetween the two sides increased in July when some drunken British sailors killed a Chinese villager. The British government, which did not wish its subjects to be tried in the Chinese legal system, refused to turn the accused men over to the Chinese courts.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War

Quote

In the 18th century, the demand for Chinese luxury goods (particularly silk, porcelain, and tea) created a trade imbalance between China and Britain. European silver flowed into China through the Canton System, which confined incoming foreign trade to the southern port city of Canton. To counter this imbalance, the British East India Companybegan to grow opium in Bengal and allowed private British merchants to sell opium to Chinese smugglers for illegal sale in China. The influx of narcotics reversed the Chinese trade surplus, drained the economy of silver, and increased the numbers of opium addicts inside the country, outcomes that seriously worried Chinese officials.


https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/opium-war-1839-1842

Quote

The roots of the Opium War (or First China War) lay in a trade dispute between the British and the Chinese Qing Dynasty. By the start of the 19th century, the trade in Chinese goods such as tea, silks and porcelain was extremely lucrative for British merchants. The problem was that the Chinese would not buy British products in return. They would only sell their goods in exchange for silver, and as a result large amounts of silver were leaving Britain.

In order to stop this, the East India Company and other British merchants began to smuggle Indian opium into China illegally, for which they demanded payment in silver. This was then used to buy tea and other goods. By 1839, opium sales to China paid for the entire tea trade.

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9 hours ago, jeba said:

Yes. And they could still be alive if Ukraine had capitulated. That's my point. Did you not understand it?

 

You are naive. Those Russians soldiers have obviously been purposefully instilled with seething hatred for all Ukrainians, whether men, women or children.  They're on a murder spree against helpless civilians. Uncontrolled. It's obvious the murders and rapes wouldn't stop with capitulation. It has become quite clear that no country in their right mind would ever want to let a Russian army enter their territory. Even before the invasion Selensky was repeatedly warning and begging for help. 

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9 hours ago, yesterday said:

Yes, everybody understands your point, its just nobody except for Putin agrees with you

That´s incorrect. Wagenknecht for instance is of the same view. Oh, the irony of that.

 

9 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Just like Germany would capitulate if invaded by Russia or any other country for that matter.

 

Yer nuts.

The difference is that Germany is a member of NATO and would therefore have a chance to succeed. In Ukraine, Putin will get what he wanted (Donbas and Luhansk) in some form or shape.

 

10 hours ago, murphaph said:

The Russians tied these guys hand behind their backs and executed them you fool.

Name-calling is no substitute for arguments.

 

10 hours ago, murphaph said:

You think an army that executes civilians would treat them better because their country had surrendered?

Yes, I do. Not least because my grandfather told me that he could understand his fellow German soldiers who murdered Greek civilians in Crete, since they suspected them of being partisans. If the war goes on and Putin and the Russians should be under enough pressure, there is a real risk Putin will escalate the violence and e.g. order carpet bombing etc.

 

10 minutes ago, bramble said:

Those Russians soldiers have obviously been purposefully instilled with seething hatred for all Ukrainians, whether men, women or children.

Why is that obvious? Just because there are some criminals among them you can´t paint all with the same brush.

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Overwhelming and highly disturbing evidence that Russian soldiers are indiscriminately conducting mass murder of civilians and raping children as young as 10, and jeba still thinks the Ukrainians should just lie back and think of capitulating.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

Why is that obvious? Just because there are some criminals among them you can´t paint all with the same brush.

 

The trouble is it seems that the few that are criminals are in charge and the criminal acts are being carried out by the majority. Just attacking a foreign country without provocation is a criminal act.

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21 minutes ago, jeba said:

The difference is that Germany is a member of NATO and would therefore have a chance to succeed. In Ukraine, Putin will get what he wanted (Donbas and Luhansk) in some form or shape.

 

Putin wants ALL of Ukraine. He's on an imperial mission. 

 

23 minutes ago, jeba said:

Yes, I do. Not least because my grandfather told me that he could understand his fellow German soldiers who murdered Greek civilians in Crete, since they suspected them of being partisans. 

 

Suspected? No proof? By the way, my late German mother was also stationed in Greece as a teletypewriter during the war (she was 18). She rhapsodised about her stay there, how beautiful the country was and how friendly the people were and so on. I asked her whether she realised that those friendly Greeks would be considered traitors amongst their own during and after the war and that they were probably only friendly to the occupiers to save their and their families lives and how would they fare after the war with this stigma. I don't think it really sunk in. It became embarrassing later in her life, when we visited Greek restaurants and she would talk to the Greek waiters how she remembered beautiful Greece all those years ago. They were too polite to point out that due to her age she must have been there during the war and that they weren't thrilled about it. Maybe their grandfathers had even been partisans killed by the Germans. 

 

45 minutes ago, jeba said:

Why is that obvious? Just because there are some criminals among them you can´t paint all with the same brush.

 

It's obvious they believe Putin's anti-Ukrainian propaganda. The whole invasion ordered by Putin is a criminal act. 

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10 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

 jeba still thinks the Ukrainians should just lie back and think of capitulating.

Yes, otherwise more of that is likely to happen.

5 minutes ago, bramble said:

Putin wants ALL of Ukraine. He's on an imperial mission. 

I doubt that. It would be beyond his capabilities to keep a hostile country the size of Ukraine occupied and under control anyway.

 

7 minutes ago, bramble said:

Suspected? No proof?

I guess not. Maybe they even murdered them merely out of revenge (two of my grandfather´s mates had been killed). He didn´t explicitly say, and I was a teenager at the time he told me (to make me aware that war isn´t as great and heroic a thing as the Western movies I liked so much, with the US cavalry coming to the rescue just in time, made it seem), so I didn´t dwell any deeper. But I remember him saying the most hostile (to Germans) civilian population was in Marseille and Crete.

 

 

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When you're down to defending the WWII era military of Germany, maybe sit this one out.

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9 hours ago, Boggsdollocks said:

Essentially, the British spent all their silver buying silk, porcelain and tea from the Chinese but the Chinese saw nothing they wanted to buy at Harrods

 

Exactly, but can't you see the same scenario developing today? The only difference being that they do want things from Harrods but will only buy them if they are made them in China!

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Let us not forget the Russian soldiers who went into Ukraine without knowing they were there to kill Ukrainians and who surrendered, sabotaged their own equipment, etc. There were a few "good" ones.

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To Jeba: I have you on ignore, unfortunately a lot of people quote you...

Just a word to the wise, putting Hitler's Nazi thugs up as an example of military behaviour isn't the brightest of ideas

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1 hour ago, Wulfrun said:

Just a word to the wise, putting Hitler's Nazi thugs up as an example of military behaviour isn't the brightest of ideas

 

4 hours ago, AlexTr said:

When you're down to defending the WWII era military of Germany, maybe sit this one out.

 

Where have I defended it? I was just pointing out some of the risks that come with continuation of the fighting. I could just as well have chosen My Lai for instance. You´ll always have bad apples in an army at war.

 

 

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Words don't seem to be getting through to our appeaser-in-chief, so I'll go Full Internet and try a cat meme.

its_time_to_stop_posting.jpg.76272ab0676

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