The War in Ukraine

[murphaph 9,814]

These child taking animals are the same people jeba thinks should be appeased.

[Eric7 555]

Has anyone got any actual evidence for this "child taking" nonsense? Fantasy tales from the Ukrainians don't count.

Russia already has a ridiculous number of overcrowded orphanages, but err, nobody wants those kids so the plan is to steal thousands of different kids from another country.

 

Mentalists.

[jeba 4,364]

9 hours ago, murphaph said:

These child taking animals are the same people jeba thinks should be appeased.

What would you have done if you had been in their place? Leave children unattended in the middle of rubble, without water, electricity heating, food...? What would you have called them if they had done that?

[jeba 4,364]

11 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Wasn't the birth rate thing in connection with claims that the Russians were abducting children from the Ukraine whether there were orphaned or not?

Sort of, I wrote it as a response to

 

On 22.11.2022, 11:07:29, yesterday said:

Russia is taking Ukrainian children because the Birth rate in Russia is now very low, Putin is very worried, that Russia will have very few people to run the country.

 

[AlexTr 19,735]

Old, ignorant, lazy, and uninformed, and then loud about it is no way to go through life.

 

Russian troops kidnap Ukrainian children and make them Russian

 

Quote

Russia’s open effort to adopt Ukrainian children and bring them up as Russian is already well underway, in one of the most explosive issues of the war, an Associated Press investigation shows.

 

Thousands of children have been found in the basements of war-torn cities like Mariupol and at orphanages in the Russian-backed separatist territories of Donbas. They include those whose parents were killed by Russian shelling as well as others in institutions or with foster families, known as “children of the state.”

 

Russia claims that these children don’t have parents or guardians to look after them, or that they can’t be reached. But the AP found that officials have deported Ukrainian children to Russia or Russian-held territories without consent, lied to them that they weren’t wanted by their parents, used them for propaganda, and given them Russian families and citizenship.

 

The investigation is the most extensive to date on the grab of Ukrainian children, and the first to follow the process all the way to those already growing up in Russia. The AP drew from dozens of interviews with parents, children and officials in both Ukraine and Russia; emails and letters; Russian documents and Russian state media.

 

[yesterday 2,022]

3 hours ago, jeba said:

What would you have done if you had been in their place? Leave children unattended in the middle of rubble, without water, electricity heating, food...? What would you have called them if they had done that?

 

This is a real joke !!!

 

So the Russians bomb and kill Ukrainian civilians, which is actually a war crime.

 

Then the Russians take the Ukrainian children, and say were only doing to help the children, maybe if they want to help they should not be bombing in the first place ???

 

Just taking children, who have not been orphaned, because Russia is short of people is a further war crime.

 

And Jeba is defending it, what a joke.

 

So Jeba, as you said you have a son, when he was little, would you not want to fight to keep him safe and well, like the Ukrainians are are doing. Or you would say no, take my son and I will be happy that my investments are doing well.

 

And do not come back with there is no evidence, there are many different articles, from different news sources saying this is happening, just see some of them above.

 

[jeba 4,364]

58 minutes ago, yesterday said:

So the Russians bomb and kill Ukrainian civilians, which is actually a war crime.

 

Then the Russians take the Ukrainian children, and say were only doing to help the children, maybe if they want to help they should not be bombing in the first place ???

 

Just taking children, who have not been orphaned, because Russia is short of people is a further war crime.

 

And Jeba is defending it, what a joke.

I´m not defending war crimes, nor the war in the first place. As I said repeatedly, I deem Putin a criminal for starting this war. However, what I´m saying is that leaving unattended children unattended in a war zone would make things even worse.

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

So Jeba, as you said you have a son, when he was little, would you not want to fight to keep him safe and well

I would have left the country to keep my children safe. In fact, had conscription not been done away with by the time we returned to Germany, I wouldn´t have returned for my son´s sake (having been subject to conscription myself).

[MikeMelga 7,312]

Interesting read:

How Greek Companies and Ghost Ships Are Helping Russia

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/23/how-greek-companies-and-ghost-ships-are-helping-russia/

 

Remember that there is still a lot of Russian support in Greece.

The new EU designation of Terrorist state will help to curb this, but not completely.

[yesterday 2,022]

8 minutes ago, jeba said:

 However, what I´m saying is that leaving unattended children unattended in a war zone would make things even worse.

 

and you seem to think that the Ukrainians would leave there own children to die in the street ? It unbelievable. Of course I am sure the Ukrainians would do everything in their power to help children who are   orphaned  or not, why is it you think its only the Russians can look after kids ?. Its clear from some of the reports, that some children just dis appeared one day, we all know Russians are just taking them, even though they have living parents.

 

8 minutes ago, jeba said:

I would have left the country to keep my children safe. In fact, had conscription not been done away with by the time we returned to Germany, I wouldn´t have returned for my son´s sake (having been subject to conscription myself).

 

 

You are an ex doctor, rich enough to leave the country, many people do not have an easy choice like that.

 

do you not see that giving in to Russia, will only see the Ukraine worse of in the longer term, as that dictator will do what ever he wants. Unfortunately,  in the short term, many people are going to die, but giving Putin that surrender could entail, many many more children being kidnapped - And that is the price you have to factor in when you say the Ukraine should give in to Putin.

[jeba 4,364]

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

you seem to think that the Ukrainians would leave there own children to die in the street ?

No, I don´t. However, during war kids get lost easily. And even after war, as my uncle could tell you, who got lost in 1945 because my grandmother was arrested by Americans for violating the curfew when looking for him.

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

its clear from some of the reports, that some children just dis appeared one day, we all know Russians are just taking them

There may well have been cases of abduction of children. However, I seriously doubt it´s a majority of cases.

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

You are an ex doctor, rich enough to leave the country, many people do not have an easy choice like that.

Firstly, you have no idea how rich, or not, I am. Secondly, since when do refugees have to be rich? Are you under the impression that the majority of refugees are rich?

 

[AlexTr 19,735]

1 hour ago, jeba said:

Firstly, you have no idea how rich, or not, I am. Secondly, since when do refugees have to be rich? Are you under the impression that the majority of refugees are rich?

 

 

Ahh, but for Russia's aggressive imperialism there would be no Ukrainian refugees, would there?

[yesterday 2,022]

2 hours ago, jeba said:

No, I don´t. However, during war kids get lost easily. And even after war, as my uncle could tell you, who got lost in 1945 because my grandmother was arrested by Americans for violating the curfew when looking for him.

 

Sure I am sure that happens, but my point is why not let the Ukrainians look after missing children, why does Russia have to collect them and send them to Russia.

 

 

Quote

There may well have been cases of abduction of children. However, I seriously doubt it´s a majority of cases.

 

Yeah well, thats just your thoughts, and we have seen they are not reliable, I remember you claiming, Russia had a higher birth rate than Germany, but it did not turn out that way, did it. So I prefer to read whats out there in the News, press, Internet than just accept your non scientific views 

 

Quote

Firstly, you have no idea how rich, or not, I am. Secondly, since when do refugees have to be rich? Are you under the impression that the majority of refugees are rich?

 

 

Correct 

But I never met a poor doctor from West Europe before, so why should you be any different.

 

I have a refuge centre near me, I tell you I would not like to live in there, its very basic. Some people who have house in Ukraine may say, its not 100 % that I will be killed, so why move to accommodation that they do not like.

 

[jeba 4,364]

16 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

 

Ahh, but for Russia's aggressive imperialism there would be no Ukrainian refugees, would there?

What´s your point? That there are Ukrainian refugees?

[jeba 4,364]

13 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Sure I am sure that happens, but my point is why not let the Ukrainians look after missing children, why does Russia have to collect them and send them to Russia.

Because in the turmoil of war parents can´t be found or are dead?

 

13 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Yeah well, thats just your thoughts, and we have seen they are not reliable, I remember you claiming, Russia had a higher birth rate than Germany,

Where did I claim that? Please quote me on it!

 

13 minutes ago, yesterday said:

But I never met a poor doctor from West Europe before, so why should you be any different.

That shows how reliable your claims are. Doesn't do much to increase your credibility.

 

13 minutes ago, yesterday said:

I have a refuge centre near me, I tell you I would not like to live in there, its very basic.

Thanks again for making my point. But didn´t you claim you need to be rich in order to leave a war zone?

 

[yesterday 2,022]

9 minutes ago, jeba said:

Because in the turmoil of war parents can´t be found or are dead?

 

As in most countrys, if I found a child who could not find their parents in the street or where ever, I would try to help that child, I would take the child to a local police station and offer that child could say with me/ my female neighbour if it was allowed and no space was left anywhere for that child to be in. I am sure that system exists in the Ukraine most people are nice around the world. Do you not think that is better than the child being taken to Russia ?

 

Quote

Where did I claim that? Please quote me on it!

On 22/11/2022, 14:00:43, jeba said:

 

Is the birth rate in Germany higher or lower than in Russia? If it´s lower, what does that tell us in your opinion?

 

 

You remember now

 

Quote

That´ shows how reliable your claims are.

 

My statement is still true, I never met a really poor doctor in the past, But you are a ex doctor, so I would expect you to know more doctors than me - But that is still my experience.

 

Quote

Thanks again for making my point. But didn´t you claim you need to be rich in order to leave a war zone?

 

 

No, please show me where I said that.

 

Of course being rich always makes it easier to exit most situations, but leaving the Ukraine can of course be done in a cheap way, after that, if you want to rent an apartment then you need enough money to pay the rent, which is easier if you are rich. Yes you can go to a refuge centre for free, but its not very nice, some would choose to stay in the Ukraine, if there house had not been damaged.

[jeba 4,364]

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

As in most countrys, if I found a child who could not find their parents in the street or where ever, I would try to help that child, I would take the child to a local police station and offer that child could say with me/

Are you trying to be comical? Do you think a Russian soldier could simply go to the next Ukrainian police station to hand over that child?

 

2 hours ago, jeba said:

Where did I claim that? Please quote me on it!

Quote

On 22.11.2022, 15:00:43, jeba said:

 

Is the birth rate in Germany higher or lower than in Russia? If it´s lower, what does that tell us in your opinion?

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

You remember now

Of course, I remember. But I can´t see that I claimed anything. Do you understand what a question mark means? And what the word "IF" means?

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

My statement is still true, I never met a really poor doctor in the past, But you are a ex doctor, so I would expect you to know more doctors than me - But that is still my experience.

It may be true that you haven´t met a poor doctor, but how is that relevant to my situation?  If that is the kind of evidence you´re relying on...

 

 

[mako1 864]

 

On 19.11.2022, 14:02:46, keith2011 said:

That is not fair imo  @jeba is clearly expressing his valid belief, just because we may not agree with it does not make him a troll.

 

 

No moral person thinks jeba's beliefs are valid (infrastructure and his investments before people?). And your views of trolls are a bit outdated. Troll farms aren't there to make you angry, they are there to sow doubt and influence. They have been active in the US since before the Trump debacle. And they are active today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_farm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades

The EU parliment was hacked as they decided Russia was a terrorist state yesterday.

Everytime jeba as a полезный идиот says 'but maybe they want to be Russian in eastern Ukraine' it is a page out of the Russian Internet Research Agency playbook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency

If he's not being paid, then he is a полезный идиот.

 

 

[yesterday 2,022]

38 minutes ago, jeba said:

Are you trying to be comical? Do you think a Russian soldier could simply go to the next Ukrainian police station to hand over that child?

 

No, I would expect an average Ukrainian, to notice a child around for a while without parents around and offer to help the child, by taking he or she to a police station, so he or she can deal with the child in a Ukrainian way.  I would expect the Russian solder, would be not interested in the child. I would not expect the Russian solder to round up the child and send it to Russia.

 

38 minutes ago, jeba said:

 

Of course, I remember. But I can´t see that I claimed anything. Do you understand what a question mark means? And what the word "IF" means?

 

Because you said 

Is the birth rate in Germany higher or lower than in Russia? If it´s lower, what does that tell us in your opinion?

Thus, implying my opinion is bad, if I had the facts wrong, but in the end you had your opinion wrong.

 

This is your claim by the way you phrased your if question

 

 

38 minutes ago, jeba said:

It may be true that you haven´t met a poor doctor, but how is that relevant to my situation?  If that is the kind of evidence you´re relying on...

 

 

 

So if I have not met any poor doctors then, why should I assume there are many ? I know your situation, you are an ex doctor, since I have not met any doctors who are poor, then I just come to that conclusion.

[keith2011 2,648]

2 hours ago, mako1 said:

No moral person thinks jeba's beliefs are valid (infrastructure and his investments before people?).

 

My god even most western armies recognise and tolerate conscientious objectors (people who do not believe in fighting for their own country) what is your problem with someone who has an opinion that it is morally wrong to fight and kill people which is what happens in a war!

I suggest that posts on the subject of  @jeba investments are no more than ironic comments when responding to uninformed attacks against him.

If you would take some time to view his posts on other threads you would know he is a wide ranging and knowledgable contributor and on this thread despite my disagreeing completely with his opinion I do respect it.

He is NOT a troll but you are an arsehole!

[jeba 4,364]

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

No, I would expect an average Ukrainian, to notice a child around for a while without parents around and offer to help the child, by taking he or s

he to a police station, so he or she can deal with the child in a Ukrainian way.

Sure, the average Ukrainian will wander around on the battlefield and the police station will be opened like usual. Try to think before typing.

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

Because you said 

Is the birth rate in Germany higher or lower than in Russia? If it´s lower, what does that tell us in your opinion?

Thus, implying my opinion is bad, if I had the facts wrong, but in the end you had your opinion wrong.

 

This is your claim by the way you phrased your if question

You do know the difference between a question and a claim, don´t you? I didn´t even express an opinion. So how could it have been a wrong one?

 

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

So if I have not met any poor doctors then, why should I assume there are many ? I know your situation, you are an ex doctor, since I have not met any doctors who are poor, then I just come to that conclusion.

Stop digging your hole deeper and deeper!