The War in Ukraine

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You are just so naive Jeba. As has been stated upthread, if you appease Putin now he will be back nibbling at the Baltic states in a few months (triggering a nuclear war without warning). You have no argument for this because you know it to be true. He's been nibbling at former SSR's for the last few years and if he is allowed to take a huge chunk out of by far the most populous one outside Russia then he will be emboldened to a point where he really poses a threat to world peace. Ukraine is (sadly for the Ukrainians) our last chance to avoid direct confrontation with Russia and we must win this proxy war and send the Russians packing.

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28 minutes ago, murphaph said:

You are just so naive Jeba. As has been stated upthread, if you appease Putin now he will be back nibbling at the Baltic states in a few months (triggering a nuclear war without warning). You have no argument for this because you know it to be true. He's been nibbling at former SSR's for the last few years and if he is allowed to take a huge chunk out of by far the most populous one outside Russia then he will be emboldened to a point where he really poses a threat to world peace. Ukraine is (sadly for the Ukrainians) our last chance to avoid direct confrontation with Russia and we must win this proxy war and send the Russians packing.

Any prove for your hypothesis? Have you watched the video? Especially the part where he says you can either try to guess what's going on in Putin's psyche or look at the facts?

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How can I prove something that hasn't happened yet? We need to look at how appeasement of dictators has panned out previously. Putin himself was appeased when the west failed to act decisively after Crimea was annexed and here we are with a full scale invasion of Ukraine attempted less than 8 years later.

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52 minutes ago, murphaph said:

How can I prove something that hasn't happened yet?

Or something that will never happen? You seem to be privy of what Putin thinks. At least you're talking as if you were. I think you just forgot taking your neuroleptics and your paranoia is rampant.

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20 minutes ago, jeba said:

I think you just forgot taking your neuroleptics and your paranoia is rampant.

Sounds like Beleidigung to me. Now where's my lawyer's number lol...

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

Or something that will never happen?

 

But it has happened as @murphaph pointed out, Russia annexed the Crimea without facing any resistance and lo and behold is now trying to get the rest of the Ukraine!

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If you don t stop the class bully, you condone the behaviour and he just keeps going. Who didn t learn that lesson aged 12 ?

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7 hours ago, murphaph said:

Sounds like Beleidigung to me. Now where's my lawyer's number lol...

 

Still waiting for you to come up with evidence.

 

5 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

But it has happened as @murphaph pointed out, Russia annexed the Crimea without facing any resistance and lo and behold is now trying to get the rest of the Ukraine!

 

Crimea was Russian in the first place and "donated" to Ukraine by Chruschtschow without residents having a say (ironically to celebrate the 300th anniversary of Ukraine joining Russia), just like medieval absolute rulers swapped fiefdoms when they e.g. lost at gambling. I can easily believe that this was highly welcome by the majority of residents as a liberation, correcting prior injustice (in fact Putin had been criticized by Crimeans for waiting too long). The fact that following independence, Ukraine had harassed them (e.g. by doing away with Russian as an official language) didn´t help (by the way, Cyprus still has Turkish as an official language). I could only accept your argument for countries to which the same applied. However, there are none.

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The fact that Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR changes absolutely nothing. The borders of Ukraine are as they were in 1991. You cannot change borders by force these days. Only pariah states recognise Crimea as part of Russia...and jeba.

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24 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The fact that Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR changes absolutely nothing.

Really? Ask the Russians living there how they feel about it. I doubt that the referendum result was really 96% or so, but it seems absolutely plausible to me that a majority want to be Russian, given how the rebel government harassed them. The fact that they were given away by Chruschtschow may not have mattered back then, but after Ukraine declared independence it started to matter. What has the rebel government done to make them feel at home in Ukraine? Forcing them to learn Ukrainian so that they e.g. could apply for subsidies or grants as their native language stopped being an official language? Confiscating their cars because they were driving with Russian number plates (as if they had had a choice)?

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19 minutes ago, jeba said:

Ask the Russians living there how they feel about it.

That is not the point!:angry: Having successfully annexed the Crimea Russia is now attempting to take the rest of the Ukraine. Do you really think they would stop there if they had been unopposed? There are Russian minorities in many of the countries of the former Soviet Union should we allow Russia to" liberate" them all against the will of the majority?

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Exactly. A line should have been drawn in the sand with Crimea. Everyone except jeba seems to accept that it was a mistake to appease Putin then. Had we supported Ukraine properly in 2014 we would have avoided the death and destruction we are now witnessing but jeba believes that the 2014 appeasement was correct, which is odd for someone who uses the "oh won't someone think of the children" argument the whole time. Jeba thinks continued appeasement of a dictator will "work" and he will magically stop at Ukraine. Highly naive.

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20 hours ago, keith2011 said:

That is not the point!

Assuming that a majority of residents are identifying as Russian, it is (and given that it used to be Russian until Chruschtschow´s gift that seems highly plausible). Just not important enough to justify a war. Neither to enforce separation nor to reverse it.

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19 hours ago, murphaph said:

Everyone except jeba seems to accept that it was a mistake to appease Putin then

You seem to live in an information bubble. Have you  not watched the video linked to above? And there are many more sharing my view. Lafontaine, Wagenknecht, Hellmeyer, to name just a few (feels weird to me though to be on the same side as Wagenknecht and Lafontaine).

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54 minutes ago, jeba said:

Assuming that a majority of residents are identifying as Russian, it is (and given that it used to be Russian until Chruschtschow´s gift that seems highly plausible). Just not important enough to justify a war. Neither to enforce separation nor to reverse it.

 

 

Many states in Europe were ""Russian"", until 1991, all of them were given freedom and  have chosen the Western way of life and a free way of life, why do you think its different in the Ukraine ???, I think your way of thinking that people chose to be under the thumb of Putin is ridiculous. Or are you saying, Poland having been under Russian control for many years wants to go back to mother Russia ???

 

We will never know, if the "majority of residents are identifying as Russian" because Putin will never give a fair referendum, so your conclusion is just false.

 

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52 minutes ago, jeba said:

You seem to live in an information bubble. Have you  not watched the video linked to above? And there are many more sharing my view. Lafontaine, Wagenknecht, Hellmeyer, to name just a few (feels weird to me though to be on the same side as Wagenknecht and Lafontaine).

 

Then you and similar thinkers should take a fight ( or maybe a train to Moscow ) and ask Putin to provide a free and fair referendum not like 98 % ones he has done, on this, and watch his reaction.

 

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1 minute ago, yesterday said:

 

 

Many states in Europe were ""Russian"", until 1991, all of them were given freedom and  have chosen the Western way of life and a free way of life, why do you think its different in the Ukraine ???, I think your way of thinking that people chose to be under the thumb of Putin is ridiculous. Or are you saying, Poland having been under Russian control for many years wants to go back to mother Russia ???

 

No, what I´m saying is that  it seems plausible to me that the Crimea was Russian and the majority identify as Russians, no matter whether Chruschtschow "donated" them to Ukraine without asking them. The fact that Ukarine harassed them didn´t help to change that.

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Just now, yesterday said:

 

Then you and similar thinkers should take a fight ( or maybe a train to Moscow ) and ask Putin to provide a free and fair referendum not like 98 % ones he has done, on this, and watch his reaction.

 

THere was a free and fair election, as a result of which Janucovicz was elected. Let´s not forget that. Where do you think the votes came from, seeing that the West of Ukraine seems not to be pro-Russian?

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1 minute ago, jeba said:

No, what I´m saying is that  it seems plausible to me that the Crimea was Russian and the majority identify as Russians, no matter whether Chruschtschow "donated" them to Ukraine without asking them. The fact that Ukarine harassed them didn´t help to change that.

 

Most people from my experience in travelling around the world, is people prefer to work and live in a free environment, very few people choose to be controlled by a dictator. Even if they feel Russian, I would think they still want to be free and would choose that over living in a dictatorship. 

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