The War in Ukraine

3,111 posts in this topic

On 14/11/2022, 08:50:42, murphaph said:

No, because most Bavarians don't want to secede from Germany, even though they vote CSU.

How do you know that? Given the current government and the level of pensions in Austria vs. Germany I wouldn´t really mind (I´m Bavarian). But the question isn´t whether Bavarians would want to join Austria but whether they´d regard it the lesser evil compared to war.

 

On 14/11/2022, 08:50:42, murphaph said:

Should anyone intervene if Turkey should finish off the invasion of Cyprus, boot you out of your house and let it be used by Turkish troops while you search through their bins for food?

 

How do you know I don´t live in the Northern part which is already occupied by Turkey? Ok, I don´t but many fellow Germans choose to. It isn´t that bad there.

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2 minutes ago, jeba said:

But the question isn´t whether Bavarians would want to join Austria but whether they´d regard it the lesser evil compared to war.

 

Huh? Where did that comparison come from?

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3 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Huh? Where did that comparison come from?

On 13/11/2022, 21:00:05, murphaph said:

There is a Bavarian separatist movement that wants to secede from the Federal Republic and unite with Switzerland and Austria. Should Germany allow this?

 

 

 

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On 14/11/2022, 09:02:30, murphaph said:

Jeba, here's why you and the other apologists for Russia are just wrong:

These people do not want to live under the jackboot of Vladimir Putin and nor should they ever, ever have to.

How do you know that this applies to the majority in Eastern Ukraine? How do you explain the fact that a pro-Russian president had won the election?

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8 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Kherson isn't in Eastern Ukraine but Putin annexed it anyway. And then promptly lost the capital.

What does that have to do with whether there is a pro-Russian majority in Eastern Ukraine which didn´t want to be governed by rebels?

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Because Putin didn't just try to "fix" the problem you claim exists, by marching only into those territories. He tried to take Ukraine, attacking Kyiv first. Remember? It's only now the narrative is changing because the Russians have performed so poorly. NOW it's all about Donbas, according to the Kremlin.

 

Let's ask the alleged pro Russian majority in Donbas what they want when they have a real choice and can express their will without fear of retribution. Did you see how Russia organised its sham referendums? Do you think people in the Donbas prior to the war could vote freely with armed separatists breathing down their necks at polling stations?

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27 minutes ago, jeba said:

How do you know that this applies to the majority in Eastern Ukraine? How do you explain the fact that a pro-Russian president had won the election?

Even if it does not by your logic they should have accepted the situation rather than go to war. In fact with help from Putin they did start fighting which basically kicked off the whole thing. So if it was right for the pro Russians in the Donbas region to start a civil war war why do you think it is wrong for the Ukraine to resist the invasion from Russia?

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30 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Because Putin didn't just try to "fix" the problem you claim exists,

Firstly, I don´t claim it exists. I merely say it doesn´t seem unlikely it exists. Secondly, what does it have to do with the question at hand? If the Western Ukrainian voters were in support of the Maidan rebel movement, where do you think the majority votes came from, if not from Eastern Ukraine? Could it not be that the Easterners preferred separation to subjecting to an illegitimate rebel government? Who says the rebel government which overthrew a democratically elected president is more legitimate than the separatists?

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37 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Even if it does not by your logic they should have accepted the situation rather than go to war. In fact with help from Putin they did start fighting which basically kicked off the whole thing. So if it was right for the pro Russians in the Donbas region to start a civil war war why do you think it is wrong for the Ukraine to resist the invasion from Russia?

That's checkmate right there.

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1 hour ago, keith2011 said:

Even if it does not by your logic they should have accepted the situation rather than go to war.

Of course, it was wrong of them to go to war. Just as it was wrong for the rebel regime to shell the East and to not give in to Putin. Because war is the bigger evil.

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3 hours ago, jeba said:

Of course, it was wrong of them to go to war. Just as it was wrong for the rebel regime to shell the East and to not give in to Putin. Because war is the bigger evil.

Then you have to admit that the biggest evil was the Russian invasion of the Ukraine rather than the Ukraine resistance to it, since Putin must have known that by doing so it could turn a bush war into a major conflict which is what has happened.

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5 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Then you have to admit that the biggest evil was the Russian invasion of the Ukraine rather than the Ukraine resistance to it, since Putin must have known that by doing so it could turn a bush war into a major conflict which is what has happened.

Of course. As I said already, I deem Putin a criminal.

On 24/02/2022, 16:45:24, jeba said:

Yes, but he should spend it in a prison cell as a convicted war criminal.

 

But that doesn´t change the fact, that I also deem Zelensky´s decision to put so many lives at risk, accept so much suffering and have his country turned to rubble irresponsible. Just as Western politicians and media acted irresponsible when painting a black and white picture and unilaterally supporting him, causing so much economic damage as collateral damage (not only in the West but also in developing countries which can´t afford current energy prices). The only beneficiaries are stockholders of energy/defence industry stocks.

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4 hours ago, jeba said:

Yes, but he should spend it in a prison cell as a convicted war criminal.

Of course. As I said already, I deem Putin a criminal.

 

Then you must realise that unless he is stopped somewhere he would, again using your appeasement approach, have no difficulty taking over the entire world so there would be no one to put him in gaol and he would never receive the just desserts for his evil ways!:wacko:

 

4 hours ago, jeba said:

 The only beneficiaries are stockholders of energy/defence industry stocks.

Of course many of those are pension funds so the benefits do get around!

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6 hours ago, jeba said:

...The only beneficiaries are stockholders of energy/defence industry stocks.

You forgot about trolls. You guys love this, that has to count for something.

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Ukraine is admirably teaching Putin and Russia a well-deserved lesson and I hope they succeed in due course. Most other countries bordering Russia to the west are demonstrating that they are not happy with Russia as a direct neighbour (applying for Nato and/or EU membership, sending aid to Ukraine etc.). I'm very unhappy with the loss of lives in Ukraine. The civilian loss of lives especially, caused by Russia alone and which civilian Russians within their own borders have been spared. 

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1 hour ago, mako1 said:

You forgot about trolls. You guys love this, that has to count for something.

That is not fair imo  @jeba is clearly expressing his valid belief, just because we may not agree with it does not make him a troll.

Quote

troll

A person who posts deliberately inflammatory messages on newsgroups, forums, or blog comment threads with the intention of provoking angry responses.

 

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