The War in Ukraine

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57 minutes ago, optimista said:

A minority... planted by Putin

That´s what I´m not sure about. After all, in Crimea and the East there were enough supporting Janucovic´s anti-Western policies that he was elected president. There are quite a few who are native Russian speakers for who Ukrainian is just a second language (which was done away with as an official language, which by itself alienated many). It didn´t help that Ukrainians started harassing Crimeans following the annexation in 2014. A fellow German who used to lived there until 2015 told me that Ukrainian authorities e.g. confiscated cars with Russian-Crimean number plates and stuff like that.

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Back to one man s freedom fighter being another man s terrorist. Chickens and eggs.

 

On the basis of not being sure, i.e. after doubt confusion has been sown, sovereign states should be dismantled ?

 

It s a classic tactic. Cf. Milosovic. Kosovo.

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2 hours ago, murphaph said:

Jeba is trying to make this out as a civil war but it isn't. It's an invasion by Russia. 

Fortunately, no one takes Jeba's statements seriously...

 

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63098651

President Joe Biden has warned Russia that the United States will not be intimidated by reckless threats after Vladimir Putin declared the annexation of four occupied regions of Ukraine.

On Friday, President Putin appeared to make a veiled threat to use nuclear weapons to defend those regions.

He said they would "forever" be Russian - but Ukraine vowed to liberate them.

Nato chief Jens Stoltenberg said the Russian move was "the most serious escalation since the start of the war".

In a speech in Moscow, the Russian leader claimed citizens in Ukraine's eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions, as well as in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia in the south had voted to be "with their people, their motherland".

He was referring to so-called referendums held in the regions in recent days, but Ukraine and Western governments have condemned the votes as a sham.

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On 9/25/2022, 3:18:47, murphaph said:
On 2/26/2022, 5:09:18, jeba said:

That's why the Ukraine should capitulate better now than in a few days rather than fight a fight they can´t win. Supplying arms would be wrong in my view. Rather use the money to help their civilians.

That didn't age well.

 

Like a fine milk.

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Conflicting news about Lyman. Ukraine clearly entering the city limits, but there are still troops inside. Seems many Russians left, but many were also caught or killed in the process.

The Russian media is going nuts on this, saying either the Ukrainians are on drugs (they actually said "zombies"), or that reinforcements will come, or that Ukrainians are being killed by the thousands... 

 

The minimum consensus information is that Lyman is hours away from falling, that many troops, especially the mercenaries, already fled (or tried to) and there are a few hundreds of regular troops, plus local militia, still making a final stand.

 

This is all happening while Ukraine army is already attacking further into occupied territory, so it seems we might see a large land grab in a few days, like we saw some weeks ago. Probably much less land area, but much more important settlements.

 

EDIT: Russia just recognized they lost Lyman. No news about troops who got stuck inside the city, but this might imply mass surrender or they managed to evacuate most during the night.

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Zelenskiy says fighting continues in Lyman so perhaps the besieged garrison there is fighting on for a while. Fools. In other news, a load of conscripts appear to be in and on their way to Belarus. I'm wondering are these more to bolster Lukashenko rather than to attempt invade Ukraine from the north again. The better Ukrainian forces do, the weaker Lukashenko is. If Belarus rebels against him, Putin would be at severe risk of the same thing. It's essential for Putin that Lukashenko stays in power.

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18 hours ago, optimista said:

On the basis of not being sure, i.e. after doubt confusion has been sown, sovereign states should be dismantled ?

It has happened often (e.g. Yugoslavia in the 90ies and I believe last time 11 years ago in Sudan). Whether it should happen in Ukraine is not the point. The point when it comes to Ukraine is whether it´s the lesser evil as compared to (civil) war. In my view it is. ESpecially if the use of nuclear weapons are not to be ruled out. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/01/chechen-leader-kadyrov-russia-should-use-low-yield-nuclear-weapon-after-new-defeat-in-ukraine.html

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What a strange obfuscating answer. You actually say yes, Ukraine should be dismantled as it is the lesser evil. Despite the question not being the point. What weird argumentation.

 

Nice try.

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It is funny to see a right wing person like @jeba with no honor.

 

PS., Coming soon: I am not a right winger, I have a black friend. And the usual, stop putting words in my mouth. 

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48 minutes ago, optimista said:

What a strange obfuscating answer. You actually say yes, Ukraine should be dismantled as it is the lesser evil. Despite the question not being the point. What weird argumentation.

 

Nice try.

Nice try to do what? I stated explictely that in my view splitting Ukraine seems the lesser evil. Therefore, not because I deem it desireable, it should happen.

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5 minutes ago, Krieg said:

It is funny to see a right wing person like @jeba with no honor.

 

PS., Coming soon: I am not a right winger, I have a black friend. And the usual, stop putting words in my mouth. 

You shouldn't have go tell me not to put word's into my mouth ( or anybody else's). Apart from that I don't see any honour in allowing tens of thousands to be killed,  muted, traumatized and permanently disabled while having a country turned to rubble.

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They should instead lose their country because in your eyes it is the "lesser evil".  No honor.

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On 10/1/2022, 9:49:23, murphaph said:

Germany and the rest of Europe already shamed itself by not intervening in the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia.

Germany is not ashamed of that. They regret bombing Belgrade and think that it was better to just watch the genocides continue, then accept some refugees to feel morally superior. 

 

The German idea of 2022 is to patiently wait until some country surpasses their own death toll of WWII. This is the real reason why Germans are angry at Ukrainians that just do not allow themselves to get killed. 

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6 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

This is the real reason why Germans are angry at Ukrainians that just do not allow themselves to get killed. 

 

Which Germans are these? I don't know any.

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I don't know any either. The ones I know (of) who oppose support for Ukraine usually deny Germany was all that bad in WWII as well, though you have Die Linke types that have such a red streak of communism running through them they just can't bring themselves to condemn mother Russia.

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Jeba is arguing that Britain should not have declared war on Germany in 1939 by the way. That's the logic of his argument. Everyone should have surrendered to Nazi Germany to save (their own) lives and prosperity (and to hell with those the Nazis would persecute afterwards). We know that undesirables in Russia fall down 10 flights of stairs, off tall buildings, eat poison with alarming regularity or just end up in shitty prisons. How many Ukrainians would be disappeared by the Russians should they actually surrender?

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Quote

 

Vladimir Putin must go.

His demented Kremlin speech Friday, during a ceremony in which he feebly asserted Russia was annexing portions of Ukraine, made the strongest case for the necessity of regime change in Moscow that any world leader has yet to make.

But it has been clear the Russian dictator must be removed from office for a long time now.

It has been clear because Putin’s actions and rhetoric demonstrate day in and day out that Ukraine can never be secure as long as he remains in office. It has been clear because none of Russia’s neighbors can be secure with a megalomaniacal lunatic next door who speaks of Russian empire and constantly threatens to rewrite the borders of sovereign states...

 

 

the rest here

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6 hours ago, Krieg said:

They should instead lose their country because in your eyes it is the "lesser evil".  No honor.

In politics "honor" is a ridiculously childish concept. You can't pay wages or rebuild infrastructure with honor.

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It's surreal that half the Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia regions, supposedly now Russian, were never, ever under Russian control!

On Friday, a russian journalist asked a Kremlin representative if the annexation was only for the occupied parts or the whole region. The representative had no answer!

This is so fucking stupid in so many different ways!

 

Again, I think Putin's plan is to scare western public with nuclear (with or without actually launching them) and forcing US and Europe to force Ukraine to concede land.

So whoever on the west or in this forum who thinks we should negotiate, please don't make Putin's day.

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