The War in Ukraine

3,137 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The short-sightedness of people is very disappointing. Letting Putin away with stealing bits of a neighbour would NOT end well. FFS this should be self explanatory. He will not stop in Ukraine. The bastard has been undermining democracy in Western Europe since he took up office. Ukraine is not his real focus, that's us! He's a fucking scourge and it's time we faced the problem. We are "lucky" that we have Ukraine as a proxy battlefield. If Ukraine was already part of Russia, he would be doing what he is doing now in the Baltic states!!! Then we would be staring nuclear war down the barrel of a gun. It is in Europe's and Germany's interest to face down this damned Russia once and for all.

 

This is all pure speculation and hysterical nonsense. Explain how he has been undermining democracy? What evidence is there that he would be attacking the Baltic states?

And it may have escaped your notice, but we are staring down the barrel of nuclear war right now. Or is that also "worth it" in your opinion?

 

The really tragic thing is that this could all have been finished by now, until the fool Johnson stuck his fat face into it.

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2 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Let's analyse this further. If we allow ourselves to be held hostage by Putin's gas (that's all this is really about), what do we do when he demands we stop delivering weapons or he turns the gas off? He only understands strength and escalation. He sees an opportunity to exploit and he takes it. How long before he would demand weapons for his side or he'll turn the gas off? Better to take the hit now and weaken Russia economically immediately. The sanctions are biting and as they bite they eat into Putin's ability to wage war. He needs hard currency and western components to build weaponry. He is running out of weapons. Russian conscripts with an AK47 are no match for Ukrainian tanks. The war is being won by Ukraine at the moment as the Russians are literally running out of stuff to fight with. Wars don't stop overnight. They are fought until one side loses. Russia is losing.

 

There's so much wrong with that I really don't know where to start.

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Exactly what @murphaph said!

 

Not only that, this is a strong message to China. If we don't stand up now, China will invade Taiwan, and eventually they will go to war against Japan!

There has to be A CLEAR MESSAGE! There will be economical consequences to those actions!

China now knows this could be devastating to their economy. Sure, we would suffer an immediate loss of goods coming from China, but China knows if this precedent is created, they will stop being the factory of the world.

 

Why do you think it was announced this week that Foxconn (Taiwan) will start making iPhones in India? All the major manufacturers are deinvesting in China and spreading their factories in India, Vietnam and Indonesia. Why? They are afraid of a Taiwan invasion and west sanctions.

 

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Good news from eastern front, many villages around Lyman freed. The russians might be afraid of becoming trapped in Lyman and we might see over the weekend another major retreat.

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12 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Exactly what @murphaph said!

 

Not only that, this is a strong message to China. If we don't stand up now, China will invade Taiwan, and eventually they will go to war against Japan!

There has to be A CLEAR MESSAGE! There will be economical consequences to those actions!

China now knows this could be devastating to their economy. Sure, we would suffer an immediate loss of goods coming from China, but China knows if this precedent is created, they will stop being the factory of the world.

 

Why do you think it was announced this week that Foxconn (Taiwan) will start making iPhones in India? All the major manufacturers are deinvesting in China and spreading their factories in India, Vietnam and Indonesia. Why? They are afraid of a Taiwan invasion and west sanctions.

 

 

Christ.

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18 minutes ago, Wulfrun said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-63053432

 

Drone footage taken on Monday shows massive queues of vehicles waiting at the Russian side of the Russian-Georgian border.

Some people were also seen on foot.

 

Why is this surprising? Exactly the same thing happened in Ukraine when conscription started there. Military aged men were fleeing in any way they could because most sane people don't actually want to fight in a war.
In other news, water is wet.

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44 minutes ago, murphaph said:

If you can't be bothered to form an argument I won't either :-)

 

I've realised there's no argument I could form which would sway you from your views.
You've already decided that Russia is going to lose the war and escalation is the correct way to go.

Unfortunately, continued escalation isn't going to end well for anyone.

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9 minutes ago, spleen69 said:

 

Why is this surprising? Exactly the same thing happened in Ukraine when conscription started there. Military aged men were fleeing in any way they could because most sane people don't actually want to fight in a war.
In other news, water is wet.

Not many of them ended up in our small Brandenburg town. I know because I help run the relief centre here. The men's clothing section has essentially the same stock it had at the outbreak of the war. Hardly any takers. A few men in their late 50's and 60's are here and one or two men of 3 kids or more but overwhelmingly women...and loads of those have gone home in the meantime too. For sure some Ukrainian men scarpered and no I wouldn't expect anyone to willingly sacrifice themselves in a war but here's the ting, millions of Ukrainians are apparently prepared to do just that to defend their homeland. Russia cannot hope to mobilise the civilian population with anything near as much gusto. Russians have no incentive to prosecute Putin's war. Ukrainians have a massive incentive to repel it.

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8 minutes ago, spleen69 said:

 

I've realised there's no argument I could form which would sway you from your views.
You've already decided that Russia is going to lose the war and escalation is the correct way to go.

Unfortunately, continued escalation isn't going to end well for anyone.

And surrendering will only delay the next land grab until Putin has created a direct conflict between NATO and his country and that is far, far more dangerous than even this war. Remember the Soviets and Americans fought proxy wars between US and Soviet hardware, all through the cold war, Vietnam being the most obvious, but countless African civil wars were the same. None ended up in a nuclear holocaust because that is what they are "designed" to avoid-direct conflict on the battlefield. History cares to teach us these valuable lessons, should we be open to learning from it.

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Just in case some of you care: the fascists fire artillery from the occupied Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, every single night. They fire at Ukrainian towns located on the opposite bank of the lake, just to destroy them and force the residents to leave. 

 

 

What do the residents do?

1. Created a Telegram channel where the information is shared when the shelling is going to begin. 

2. Drive out of the city deep into Ukraine during the shelling. Sleep in the car. 

3. Return to work in the morning. 

 

In the meantime, the Russians are conscripting the residents of the occupied territories to their army. This is what "stop fighting and let the Russians occupy Ukraine" means. 

 

Imagine, in 1938 the Austrians would fight like Ukrainians. Would WWII begin? I don't think so. 

 

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13 minutes ago, murphaph said:

And surrendering will only delay the next land grab until Putin has created a direct conflict between NATO and his country and that is far, far more dangerous than even this war. Remember the Soviets and Americans fought proxy wars between US and Soviet hardware, all through the cold war, Vietnam being the most obvious, but countless African civil wars were the same. None ended up in a nuclear holocaust because that is what they are "designed" to avoid-direct conflict on the battlefield. History cares to teach us these valuable lessons, should we be open to learning from it.

 

Is it hard for you to grasp that negotiation doesn't mean surrender?
The negotiations in Istanbul apparently resulted in an outline agreement where Ukraine would remain neutral, Russia would keep Crimea but withdraw from Ukraine and the Donbas would have certain guarantees and a greater level of autonomy but remain part of Ukraine. This was basically all agreed and was only scuppered by outsiders demanding further escalation. How is what we have now a better situation?

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Putin is a special kind of mad man, I find it hard to believe he would go to full scale war in which his daughter would probably die.

 

All the way through the 70, and 80, I never really got the feeling that we were going to full scale war.

 

I still do not have the feeling we are going there ... I hope to god I am right.

 

Germany is partly responsible for this situation and it should be part of the soloution

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3 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

This is what "stop fighting and let the Russians occupy Ukraine" means.

 

Who is suggesting this?

I've seen suggestions of diplomacy and negotiation but not this.

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7 minutes ago, spleen69 said:

 

Is it hard for you to grasp that negotiation doesn't mean surrender?
The negotiations in Istanbul apparently resulted in an outline agreement where Ukraine would remain neutral, Russia would keep Crimea but withdraw from Ukraine and the Donbas would have certain guarantees and a greater level of autonomy but remain part of Ukraine. This was basically all agreed and was only scuppered by outsiders demanding further escalation. How is what we have now a better situation?

 

I guess not agreed by the Ukraine 

 

So we are supposed to agree that parts of Ukraine will be scarified to feed the hunger of Russia

 

Russia is the largest country in the world, why does it need more and more and more land, with a low population density. The Russians are just taking the piss  

 

We can either try and stop them now, or they come back at us later in a stronger position, I am quite sure Jeba, will offer every other country to Russia, for its GAS, but when Russia comes to Germany and says just give us Bavaria, he will be calling loud for the world to defend Germany

 

 

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2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

We can either try and stop them now, or they come back at us later in a stronger position, I am quite sure Jeba, will offer every other country to Russia, for its GAS, but when Russia comes to Germany and says just give us Bavaria, he will be calling loud for the world to defend Germany

 

 

 

They will make a referendum in Bavaria and they will vote they want to join Russia.  And there are some Nazis in Bavaria.   So I see no reason why Germany shouldn't appease and give Bavaria to Putin.

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4 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

I guess not agreed by the Ukraine 

 

So we are supposed to agree that parts of Ukraine will be scarified to feed the hunger of Russia

 

Russia is the largest country in the world, why does it need more and more and more land, with a low population density. The Russians are just taking the piss  

 

We can either try and stop them now, or they come back at us later in a stronger position, I am quite sure Jeba, will offer every other country to Russia, for its GAS, but when Russia comes to Germany and says just give us Bavaria, he will be calling loud for the world to defend Germany

 

 

It was agreed by Ukraine during the negotiations. They backed away from the deal after Johnson's visit.

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Just now, spleen69 said:

 

It was agreed by Ukraine during the negotiations. They backed away from the deal after Johnson's visit.

Got a source for that statement ?

 

From a recognized reputable source ?

 

Only I do not see it on the BBC

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