The War in Ukraine

3,073 posts in this topic

Putin knows judo!  he's corrupt, a dictator and a coward.  what else do you need to know?

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On 26.9.2022, 22:49:39, murphaph said:

Never mind the timing stuff excuse. You claimed that Ukraine (the whole country) should have surrendered right at the outbreak of the war as fighting was pointless and defeat inevitable. You did not state that they should surrender the Donbas only. You said the whole country should surrender to Russia.

What would I need an excuse for? I still think it would have been the lesser evil. A large part of the population seems to be pro-Russian (as demonstrated by the fact that Janucovic had been elected in the first place) and fighting for the interest of the pro-Western part of the population isn´t worth the humanitarian and economic damage. Ask e.g. those who lost their children or got mutilated and scarred for life whether they share my thinking.

 

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On 26.9.2022, 23:11:35, yesterday said:

What do you think about the Ukrainian recovered land, where they find bullets in the back of the head, hands tied behind the back or was it the Ukrainian's who did this ?

To avoid things like that I´d have opted not to engage in a war. That´s my point. Not that Putin was right to start it.

 

On 26.9.2022, 23:11:35, yesterday said:

the Russian have nothing except mass death, this is who you are defending

Nonsense. I never defended that.

 

On 26.9.2022, 23:11:35, yesterday said:

I am sorry I find your thinking hard to understand, look at the positives

  • German has filled over 90 % of the gas tanks, sure its expensive but gas prices are falling

At the expense of the chemical industry stopping production in Germany. Sorry, but I fail to see the positive side of that. On the contrary, I´m afraid that this will end in Germany´s deindustrialization and a huge loss of prosperity.

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

What would I need an excuse for? I still think it would have been the lesser evil. A large part of the population seems to be pro-Russian (as demonstrated by the fact that Janucovic had been elected in the first place) and fighting for the interest of the pro-Western part of the population isn´t worth the humanitarian and economic damage. Ask e.g. those who lost their children or got mutilated and scarred for life whether they share my thinking.

 

Then we're back to the Luxembourg invading Germany scenario I put to you previously when the assumption was that the war would be a walk over. It would save lives if Germany surrendered immediately to Luxembourg in such a scenario but Germany would be able to beat Luxembourg in a war so logically it would not surrender. It would take the casualties and prosecute the war of defence. Or say Denmark or Poland. Would you advocate surrender for Germany should Poland invade? No. You just expect the Ukrainians to surrender so to save German industry. 

 

German politicians could have chosen to prioritise German industry and ration gas for domestic use. They still could. They choose to do the damage to industry instead because industry does not vote, even though logically the right thing to do for Germany is to priorities industrial customers and tell domestic customers to heat less and wear more warm clothes. We are voluntarily cutting our energy (we have no gas only electric heat) usage. The heat pump heating circuit is still off and will remain off well into the winter in this house and will be used sparingly. The hot water generation is now limited to once per 24 hours at 3pm when the air outside is warmest. This means brief showers only rather than baths. Everyone can play a small part in reducing our energy requirement this winter and helping German industry and Ukraine through the war. Moaning like a bitch is not part of the solution.

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4 hours ago, jeba said:

At the expense of the chemical industry stopping production in Germany. Sorry, but I fail to see the positive side of that. On the contrary, I´m afraid that this will end in Germany´s deindustrialization and a huge loss of prosperity.

 

This is probably the selfishtest thing you have written here.  Ukraine should have appeased so Germans won't lose their comfort.  

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4 hours ago, jeba said:

A large part of the population seems to be pro-Russian

 

Not to me.

 

How many Ukranian troops have deserted?

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And watching their votes and taking their names if they vote for Russia.

 

A total farce and nobody will recognize the "results" except Putin.

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4 hours ago, fraufruit said:

And watching their votes and taking their names if they vote for Russia.

 

A total farce and nobody will recognize the "results" except Putin.

 

Farce or not, plenty will recognize the results. Probably the same countries who don't recognise Kosovo.

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12 hours ago, jeba said:

 

 

At the expense of the chemical industry stopping production in Germany. Sorry, but I fail to see the positive side of that. On the contrary, I´m afraid that this will end in Germany´s deindustrialization and a huge loss of prosperity.

 

There is a kind of fairness in this, Germany became to dependent on Russian Gas . Germany believed Russia would never use it as a weapon. The German economy became huge, large by buying this GAS.

 

Well it turns out that Germany was wrong ...

 

I do not want a recession, but Germany gained a lot from cheap Russian GAS, is it not fair that Germany should take a hit - or you see it that its more fair, that Ukraine should lose its tertiary for a German ( and otherr countrides ) mistake.

 

Un believable, why should Ukraine suffer for the mistakes of Germany ??  and other country's.

 

Instead of using ( as the Germans call it ) transistion fuels like GAS, Germany should have been moving in a fast way to renewables, to break this dependance.

 

Your lack of support for Ukraine shows this selfish attitude, why should Germany not suffer for its mistakes and take responsibility for their part in this disaster

 

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5 hours ago, spleen69 said:

 

Farce or not, plenty will recognize the results. Probably the same countries who don't recognise Kosovo.

Well Serbia has stated it will not recognise them or Russia's annexation of yet more of Ukraine's territory.

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2 hours ago, yesterday said:

 

Your lack of support for Ukraine shows this selfish attitude, why should Germany not suffer for its mistakes and take responsibility for their part in this disaster

 

Indeed, Germany has contributed to this, despite the repeated warnings by the US about the implications of what the dependence on gas from Nordstream 1 (and later 2) would mean for European security. Every German political party was in favour of Nordstream. The Poles were busy building a pipeline to Norway at the same time so Germany really walked itself into this mess while there was a (slightly more expensive but more secure) alternative.

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22 hours ago, murphaph said:

You just expect the Ukrainians to surrender so to save German industry. 

I don´t expect anything from Ukraine. But I expect the German government to put Germany´s interests first, as their oath of office obliges them to. I predict they´ll pay a hefty price at the next election once the recession/inflation they are causing will have hit. It's the economy, stupid. Orban seems to have understood this. He is currently planning a referendum ("national consultation") about whether Hungary should continue sanctioning Russia (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungary-pm-orban-says-eu-sanctions-russia-have-backfired-2022-09-26/). Do you want to bet what the outcome will be? Hint: Polls in Austria showed 52% support for doing away with them:

Quote

An absolute majority of 52 percent of respondents believe that EU sanctions against Russia should be ended. Deepl-translation from https://exxpress.at/die-grosse-exxpress-umfrage-bereits-52-fuer-ein-ende-der-eu-sanktionen/

 

20 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

This is probably the selfishtest thing you have written here.  Ukraine should have appeased so Germans won't lose their comfort.  

See above. Plus, it´s not only about comfort, it´s about keeping the industrial base.

 

19 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Not to me.

So how do you explain that Janucovic had won the election before he was ousted in a coup? How is the rebel government more legitimate than his? And why did the separatists in Eastern Ukraine want to separate from Ukraine? That´s a question one should at least ask oneself.

 

12 hours ago, yesterday said:

There is a kind of fairness in this, Germany became to dependent on Russian Gas . Germany believed Russia would never use it as a weapon. The German economy became huge, large by buying this GAS.

 

Well it turns out that Germany was wrong ...

She wasn´t wrong. However, the current government was stupid enough to stop buying from Russia. Russia would happily have continued to deliver energy and commodities. It´s ridiculous to claim Russia used energy as a weapon if you put sanctions in place which prevent it from delivering. Sounds like Marxist dialectic to me.

 

The problem with sacrificing Germany´s prosperity for Ukraine  is that you can only sacrifice it once. There will be nothing left to sacrifice for other worthy causes like e.g. sanctioning China for human rights violations, Marocco for occupying parts of Senegal in violation of UNO resolutions, Saudi Arabia and the UAE for what happens in Yemen, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Aserbidjan.... (is there no emoticon for irony/cynicism?).

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

The problem with sacrificing Germany´s prosperity for Ukraine  is that you can only sacrifice it once. There will be nothing left to sacrifice for other worthy causes like e.g. sanctioning China for human rights violations, Marocco for occupying parts of Senegal in violation of UNO resolutions, Saudi Arabia and the UAE for what happens in Yemen, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Aserbidjan... (is there no emoticon for irony/cynicism?).

 

The sanctions haven't been effective with regards to stopping the war anyway, so the destruction of the German economy will have been in vain.


Unless someone can explain how the economic sanctions (not to be confused with supplying weapons, which is a different animal) against Russia have benefited Ukraine in any way?

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36 minutes ago, spleen69 said:

 

The sanctions haven't been effective with regards to stopping the war anyway, so the destruction of the German economy will have been in vain.


Unless someone can explain how the economic sanctions (not to be confused with supplying weapons, which is a different animal) against Russia have benefited Ukraine in any way?

Sanctions are a long term mess for them, not an immediate one. Your perspecitve lacks the "time" consideration. Their factories can't build any more since they can't source components. Their planes can't fly once they need serious maintenance. Their companies are suffering brain drain. This will have a long term impact, and you're just focused on how much money they make.

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The short-sightedness of people is very disappointing. Letting Putin away with stealing bits of a neighbour would NOT end well. FFS this should be self explanatory. He will not stop in Ukraine. The bastard has been undermining democracy in Western Europe since he took up office. Ukraine is not his real focus, that's us! He's a fucking scourge and it's time we faced the problem. We are "lucky" that we have Ukraine as a proxy battlefield. If Ukraine was already part of Russia, he would be doing what he is doing now in the Baltic states!!! Then we would be staring nuclear war down the barrel of a gun. It is in Europe's and Germany's interest to face down this damned Russia once and for all. 

 

Jeba, German industry was completely destroyed in the aftermath of WW2 and recovered. It will not be reduced to ashes like it was then. Some firms will go bust due to energy prices but the government could do more to prioritise industry at the expense of domestic customers. Do you not agree there? There are alternatives that don't involve throwing our hands up in the air and folding like a cheap suit.

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9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Sanctions are a long term mess for them, not an immediate one. Your perspecitve lacks the "time" consideration. Their factories can't build any more since they can't source components. Their planes can't fly once they need serious maintenance. Their companies are suffering brain drain. This will have a long term impact, and you're just focused on how much money they make.

 

You didn't read what I wrote.
I wrote that they sanctions haven't been effective in stopping the war, not that they wouldn't impact Russia in the long term, which they clearly will.

 

How does creating a long term problem for Russia (at the expense of devastating the German economy) help Ukraine?

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1 minute ago, spleen69 said:

 

You didn't read what I wrote.
I wrote that they sanctions haven't been effective in stopping the war, not that they wouldn't impact Russia in the long term, which they clearly will.

 

How does creating a long term problem for Russia (at the expense of devastating the German economy) help Ukraine?

Let's analyse this further. If we allow ourselves to be held hostage by Putin's gas (that's all this is really about), what do we do when he demands we stop delivering weapons or he turns the gas off? He only understands strength and escalation. He sees an opportunity to exploit and he takes it. How long before he would demand weapons for his side or he'll turn the gas off? Better to take the hit now and weaken Russia economically immediately. The sanctions are biting and as they bite they eat into Putin's ability to wage war. He needs hard currency and western components to build weaponry. He is running out of weapons. Russian conscripts with an AK47 are no match for Ukrainian tanks. The war is being won by Ukraine at the moment as the Russians are literally running out of stuff to fight with. Wars don't stop overnight. They are fought until one side loses. Russia is losing.

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