The War in Ukraine

3,073 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

More like potatoes and, oh, potatoes...

Really? Was there a democratically elected Czech president removed from power in an unconstitutional way who was a close friend of Hitler? Somehow, I must have missed that in history class.

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3 hours ago, mako1 said:

 

Jeba's new Toytown signature.

Basically jeba is saying that invading countries and wiping off their populations is totally ok if you have a good reason to do so. For example, there was one country where German speaking population was humiliated, German was banned as a language of education, and speaking German was forbidden. The population was offered either to assimilate or to get deported to Germany.

 

So, Hitler, according to jeba, had a good reason to invade this country.

 

But he didn't, it was his close ally, Italy.

 

These were apples. Now I want to talk about oranges.

 

There a country where Russian speakers are humiliated, are supposed to assimilate or get deported to Russia.

 

So, according to jeba, it is totally justified to invade this country.

 

But Putin didn't, it is Kazachstan, the dictator is his close ally.

 

The story about language is passe, the reason for the current war has changed. Now it is totally about "Lebensraum".

 

 

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14 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Basically jeba is saying that invading countries and wiping off their populations is totally ok if you have a good reason to do so.

What would be a good reason for "wiping off their populations"?

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

What would be a good reason for "wiping off their populations"?

 

They refuse to appease. 

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No matter how you turn and twist any of this, Russia had and has no right to invade Ukraine. Get out of there Russia and stop this nonsense. 

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Unfortunately people like Putin and Jeba, see a world where might is right. They do not have any understanding of a rules based world, as for as they are concerned who ever has the biggest military wins. 

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12 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Unfortunately people like Putin and Jeba, see a world where might is right. They do not have any understanding of a rules based world, as for as they are concerned who ever has the biggest military wins. 

Wrong. I never said Putin´s war was justified. I´m just saying that there are a lot of Ukrainians (in the Eastern parts of Ukraine) who sympathize with him (otherwise there would be no separatist movement) and that Zelensky´s policies are maximizing the damage rather than containing it. And that I´m not in favour of sacrificing Germany´s (and other countries´) economy for the sake of supporting Zelensky.

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6 minutes ago, jeba said:

Zelensky´s policies are maximizing the damage rather than containing it.

 

How so? By not surrendering and letting Russia march in and take all?

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1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

 

How so? By not surrendering and letting Russia march in and take all?

E.g. by insisting to get the Crimea back even though the majority of population there is probably pro-Russian. Remember, it was Russian territory until Chrustchow "donated" it to Ukraine without asking the populace if they agreed. According to a fellow German who used to live there until 2015 Ukrainians harassed Crimeans if the came to Ukraine. E.g. their cars were confiscated if they entered non-occupied territory because they didn't have Ukrainian number plates, but Russian ones (as if they had a choice).  Things like that probably didn't help much to increase the popularity of the Western Ukrainian government in a region which had voted for Janukovic, the pro-Russian president who was ousted by the Maidan revolution they didn't support. According to him there is rift between Eastern and Western Ukrainians. The situation looks similar to e.g. Cyprus, Northern Ireland, Sudan, Catalonia etc. . It's not as black and white as many are thinking.

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Even so, it's an internal Ukrainian matter to sort out for themselves, nothing that Russia should interfere with.  

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Like so many things, it's complicated:

 

"Historical background of the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine"

 

Quote

A variety of social, economical, cultural, ethnic, and linguistic factors contributed to the sparking of unrest in eastern and southern Ukraine in 2014, and the subsequent eruption of the Russo-Ukrainian War, in the aftermath of the early 2014 Revolution of Dignity.

 

Following Ukrainian independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, resurfacing historical and cultural divisions and a weak state structure hampered the development of a unified Ukrainian national identity.[1] In eastern and southern Ukraine,

Russification and ethnic Russian settlement during centuries of Russian rule caused the Russian language to attain primacy, even amongst ethnic Ukrainians.

 

In Crimea, ethnic Russians have comprised the majority of the population since the deportation of the indigenous Crimean Tatars by Soviet general secretary Joseph Stalin following the Second World War. This contrasts with western and central Ukraine, which were historically ruled by a variety of powers, such as the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Austrian Empire.[2] In these areas, the Ukrainian ethnic, national, and linguistic identity remained intact.

 

The tensions between these two competing historical and cultural traditions erupted into political and social conflict during the Euromaidan, which began when then Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign an association agreement with the European Union on 21 November 2013.[3]

 

Support for closer ties with Europe was strong in western and central Ukraine, whilst many in eastern and southern Ukraine traditionally favoured stronger relations with Russia.

 

President Yanukovych, who drew most of his support from eastern regions, was forced out of office in February 2014. His ouster was followed by protests in eastern and southern Ukraine that placed a strong emphasis on the importance of historical ties to Russia, the Russian language, and antipathy towards the Euromaidan movement.[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_background_of_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

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They earned more in the first half of 2022 than in all of 2021.  So much for the efficiency of the sanctions.

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3 hours ago, jeba said:

They earned more in the first half of 2022 than in all of 2021.  So much for the efficiency of the sanctions.

 

Much the same as most energy supply companies and as long as Europe is still buying gas from Gazprom it is likely to continue while prices remain so high. Unlike sanctions on many other products and services we need the gas and have no alternative supplier yet so can't just turn it off.

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7 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Much the same as most energy supply companies and as long as Europe is still buying gas from Gazprom it is likely to continue while prices remain so high. Unlike sanctions on many other products and services we need the gas and have no alternative supplier yet so can't just turn it off.

What makes me angry is that Nordstream 2 remains closed even though Putin suggested to use it for gas delivery. So, the high prices are self-inflicted merely to save face. Despite all the hardship and damage for residents and economy resulting. What difference does it make whether Russian gas is delivered via pipeline A or pipeline B? It's still Russian gas.

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26 minutes ago, jeba said:

What makes me angry is that Nordstream 2 remains closed even though Putin suggested to use it for gas delivery. So, the high prices are self-inflicted merely to save face. Despite all the hardship and damage for residents and economy resulting. What difference does it make whether Russian gas is delivered via pipeline A or pipeline B? It's still Russian gas.

 

 

Do you really think gas prices will fall significantly if supplies were allowed via Nordstream 2, given that the flow from other pipelines have either been restricted or stopped by Putin? It is not just about saving face, if Nordstream 2 is allowed to come on line it will reinforce Germany's and Europe's dependency on Russian energy and rightly give Putin an economic victory. The Ukraine war has starkly brought into focus the need of Europe and the west to wean itself off Russian energy in favour of more friendly  suppliers.

Gorbachev and his reformed Soviet Union is gone, replaced by Putin and a gangster dictatorship.

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

What makes me angry is that Nordstream 2 remains closed even though Putin suggested to use it for gas delivery. So, the high prices are self-inflicted merely to save face. Despite all the hardship and damage for residents and economy resulting. What difference does it make whether Russian gas is delivered via pipeline A or pipeline B? It's still Russian gas.

 

That is if you believe Mr Putin, most Western experts thinks there is nothing wrong with Nordstream 1, and Mr Putin is just playing political games with the West. As soon as the West agrees to take Gas from Nordstream 2, the Russians will find technical problems with the pipeline and restrict ( after some weeks )  the flow of Gas through it.

 

Lets not forget Putin has switched off all pipelines ( about 5 of them ) from Russia to force the West to accept, that he has a strangle hold around our necks and accept the taking of the Ukraine.

 

Putin has also shut the Gas of to some countries who will not pay in Rubbles, more games, that Putin wants to play and win.

 

Putin will use the Gas situation to his benefit, until we get off Russian Gas, and people like you will appease Putin.

 

You can see the many games Putin is playing to weaken the wests position, that Putin is playing, just connect the dots together, if we give in he will move to the next thing he wants, until he has everything We have to draw a line in the sand and say we accept we are worse off in the short term, but better off in the long term.

 

It sedans me, that you fall for such a cheap and nasty trick.

 

One question to you given what we see with the Murders of people in the UK, by Russian, probably on Putins say so and the illegal invasion of the Ukraine and the many other wars Putin has played in. Why is it that you have such faith in Putins word ?? You seem to think like a 5 year old who, thinks the sweets will always come if you are nice 

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