Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

590 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, circuits said:

 

There are a variety of leases available with different buyout options. I've heard some people prefer leasing as the extra liquidity can be more valuable for other purposes.

My reasoning is that leasing is a waste of money if you plan on keeping the car for more than 3-4 years. Sure you get extra liquidity, but are you sure your investments will pay off good enough to offset the extra costs of leasing?

I usually keep a car for 8-20 years, so leasing is pure stupidity in my case.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Together with climate control for departure time in the morning.

 

We're Rentner. We have no morning departure times or any other schedule really. :D

 

Himself can assess the comfort on long rides when he drives home from Hanover.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

My reasoning is that leasing is a waste of money if you plan on keeping the car for more than 3-4 years. Sure you get extra liquidity, but are you sure your investments will pay off good enough to offset the extra costs of leasing?

I usually keep a car for 8-20 years, so leasing is pure stupidity in my case.

 

Now mind you I'm buying and not leasing - here are some considerations in favour of leasing I've heard from others:

 

EV battery technology is advancing quickly so for some people it's a hedge against potential depreciation, including the possibility of battery degradation leading to capacity loss. Most EV battery guarantees are for a minimum of 70% battery capacity over 8 years / 160.000km which some consider too much of a potential compromise. Considering the cost of battery or individual battery module replacement, this might make up for the higher cost of leasing compared to buying. And also: what if the EV turns out to be unreliable?

 

Furthermore, in 4 years we'll likely see faster charging due to better improved batteries and charging curves, in addition to better car software and driver assistance tech. Leasing makes it easier to keep riding that wave (at a price).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

My reasoning is that leasing is a waste of money if you plan on keeping the car for more than 3-4 years. Sure you get extra liquidity, but are you sure your investments will pay off good enough to offset the extra costs of leasing?

I usually keep a car for 8-20 years, so leasing is pure stupidity in my case.

 

On top of that the leasing contracts are a bit unfavorable for private customers in Germany, very low kilometers included and you pay one leg and arm for damages to the car and no damage is fair use, they want the car back looking like it is still new, kind of forcing you to buy the car at the end.  Not sure if things have changed in the recent years though.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, circuits said:

 

Electricity is taxed, you know?

Really,well thanks for telling me that.

So you seem to believe EVs will stay a cheap mobility option.

 

59 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Sure they will charge the EV's more tax, but its a question of when ...

 

Maybe you can drive on reduced costs for another 10 years, maybe not

At least someone knows what´s going to happen.

EVs are good for the environment and at the moment a much cheaper option but people should not really believe that they will remain the cheap option.

Govts just don´t do that, especially once people are weaned off of ICE transport.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Ioniq 5 battery guarantee is 10 yrs. or 160,000 km. Himself will be 80 by then if we are blessed enough to live that long.

 

Some guy at the TÜV the other day said replacing EV batteries costs € 20.000. I laughed. They don't even know what they will cost in 10 yrs. time and nobody is replacing them yet. In any event, we will have a battery fund for when the time comes if that is what we want to do at that point.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My car just passed TÜV a few weeks ago, although the inspector warned that the rear brake rotors were a bit rusty.  He suggested safely slamming on the brakes from time to time.  I rarely use the brakes thanks to 1-pedal driving.  He said it's a common issue with EVs. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, scook17 said:

 

What happens regarding MWST when you lease a car and would normally be able to claim a refund of MWST and depreciation over 6 years? Does it make sense to lease a car rather than purchase it? You could for example simply buy the car on hire purchase OR lease it. Would it make any difference, tax wise?

 

Supposing you like the car, and after 48 months don't just want another new one. Do you get to pay just the remaining value or do companies tend to screw customers on this? Personally I was interested in the EV6, and it seems only KIA offer leasing at 2.99%.

 

You claim the MwSt refund every month as you pay it (or quarterly if you are on that cycle), rather than up front as a lump sum. Depreciation isn't a factor - you have a monthly deductible instead, the same as if it was any other cost under €800.

 

I think it makes sense because it's cheaper for me, but it really depends on the deal you find or can get.
My car, as an example, had a list price of just over €61k (net). I pay €300pm (net) including servicing, with no deposit so a total of €10,800 over 3 years or about 18% of the list price. If I bought it, it would lose at least that much as soon as I drove it away from the dealer. Sure, there would be some discount possible when buying (although not much with a new EV) but buying still works out to be more expensive.

 

I don't think it's worth buying the car at the end of the leasing contract as it would normally be just as cheap to get a new one. There is generally a smallish penalty to pay at the end for minor issues but the most I have ever paid was just over €1k and that was on a VW Phaeton with a list price over €100k which had multiple crashes while I had it.

 

One important point - only go for KM leasing, not Restwertleasing - unless you actively want to get screwed over.

 

Any more questions, let me know!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

The Ioniq 5 battery guarantee is 10 yrs. or 160,000 km. Himself will be 80 by then if we are blessed enough to live that long.

 

Some guy at the TÜV the other day said replacing EV batteries costs € 20.000. I laughed. They don't even know what they will cost in 10 yrs. time and nobody is replacing them yet. In any event, we will have a battery fund for when the time comes if that is what we want to do at that point.

 

As I mentioned in the quick and dirty FAQ at the beginning: "If someone needs to repair or replace their battery, some manufacturers like Tesla require that the whole battery be replaced. Others like VW group let you replace individual battery modules; for example, the 58 kWh VW group battery has 9 individually replaceable modules."

 

You're right though: the battery aftermarket in 10 years will be very different from what it is now. Some 3rd parties are offering Tesla battery repairs but the question remains whether Tesla will cripple the car (eg. prevent supercharging), void the warranty, etc.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Really,well thanks for telling me that.

So you seem to believe EVs will stay a cheap mobility option.

 

 

ha, I have no idea what will happen. It is worth pointing out that there is a tax structure in place and with a supposed desire to make Germany 100% renewable by 2035, the grid will look very different by then. As in, very distributed and matching up very well with the demands of EVs and the ability to leverage them for storage, especially at night. There are countless articles and reports about this.

 

(I'm actually not a fan of EVs or cars in general. I haven't owned a car in over 20 years! Just happened to have a bunch of unexpected circumstances that led to an EV purchase)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Keleth said:

So you seem to believe EVs will stay a cheap mobility option.

 

As I mentioned earlier, we didn't buy one to be cheap. There has always been a market for expensive cars including gas guzzlers.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eric7 said:

Important point - only go for KM leasing, not Restwertleasing - unless you actively want to get screwed over.

 

Any more questions, let me know!

Sorry naive question, KM vs Restwertleasing? I presume KM leasing is based on KM driven. Restwertleasing is bad because?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, scook17 said:

Sorry naive question, KM vs Restwertleasing? I presume KM leasing is based on KM driven. Restwertleasing is bad because?

 

Restwertleasing is when there is an "end value" assigned to the car at the beginning of the lease. If, for whatever reason (the current market, km driven, damage etc.) the value is deemed to be less than that when you hand it back, you have to either pay the difference of buy the car for that pre-agreed price (which will be too much compared to the market).
It's 100% to be avoided.
With km leasing, you basically know where you stand from the start. Obviously you have to look after the car but that's no different than the resale of a car being dependent on how well you've looked after it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, circuits said:

It is worth pointing out that there is a tax structure in place and with a supposed desire to make Germany 100% renewable by 2035, the grid will look very different by then. As in, very distributed and matching up very well with the demands of EVs and the ability to leverage them for storage, especially at night. There are countless articles and reports about this.

It´s not about the easy availability of electricity it´s about govts losing billions of €s every year.You could have cars running on water and the govts would still make that loss of tax revenue up somehow.

It the same with the tax on EVs,it´s cheap now because the govt wants to be shown to encourage people to buy EVs but once that is over then up goes the tax.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Keleth said:

It´s not about the easy availability of electricity it´s about govts losing billions of €s every year.You could have cars running on water and the govts would still make that loss of tax revenue up somehow.

It the same with the tax on EVs,it´s cheap now because the govt wants to be shown to encourage people to buy EVs but once that is over then up goes the tax.

Its not only collecting TAX, but taxing and making things more expensive is a way to reduce the number of cars on the road, if it was much cheaper to drive then, more people would get cars and therefore the Government would have to build more roads, its end less, so the Government just makes it expensive enough to deter people

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Keleth said:

It´s not about the easy availability of electricity it´s about govts losing billions of €s every year.You could have cars running on water and the govts would still make that loss of tax revenue up somehow.

It the same with the tax on EVs,it´s cheap now because the govt wants to be shown to encourage people to buy EVs but once that is over then up goes the tax.

 

Petrol brought in 14.9b in taxes in 2020. Diesel was 19.6b.

https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Staat/Steuern/Verbrauchsteuern/energiesteuer.html

 

In Germany, automobile emissions are estimated to cause 15b in health costs alone:

https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/ger/Nachrichten/Daten-Nachrichten/Die-jaehrlichen-Gesundheitskosten-aufgrund-der-Umweltverschmutzung-durch-Kraftfahrzeuge-belaufen-sich-auf-60-Milliarden-Euro

 

Now start adding up the environmental costs of refining, transporting and burning fossil fuels for vehicles:

https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/daten/umwelt-wirtschaft/gesellschaftliche-kosten-von-umweltbelastungen#gesamtwirtschaftliche-bedeutung-der-umweltkosten

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4.3.2022, 14:54:18, circuits said:

 

Now mind you I'm buying and not leasing - here are some considerations in favour of leasing I've heard from others:

 

EV battery technology is advancing quickly so for some people it's a hedge against potential depreciation, including the possibility of battery degradation leading to capacity loss. Most EV battery guarantees are for a minimum of 70% battery capacity over 8 years / 160.000km which some consider too much of a potential compromise. Considering the cost of battery or individual battery module replacement, this might make up for the higher cost of leasing compared to buying. And also: what if the EV turns out to be unreliable?

My battery will most likely outlast the car, I lost 4.5% in 3 years. And you forget that EVs are getting more expensive, not less. Because of crazy demand. Sure prices will drop, but perhaps only in 2-3 years. Meaning my 2019 will be 6 by then, which means leasing makes no sense.

 

On 4.3.2022, 14:54:18, circuits said:

 

Furthermore, in 4 years we'll likely see faster charging due to better improved batteries and charging curves, in addition to better car software and driver assistance tech. Leasing makes it easier to keep riding that wave (at a price).

Faster charging? Sorry, in practice you don't need more than 250kW. Even 150kW is fine. People make a big fuss on charging speed. What I find in big trips is that charging is too fast sometimes and I stay parked longer to eat or stretch the legs.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Drove the Ioniq for 3h today. Here are some more details:

  • Seats are comfortable for sure
  • Voice recognition is not good. I would say a success rate of 20%, vs >90% with Tesla. I could probably get it better with training, but not much more.
  • HUD is nice, wish I had it on Tesla. I think it's the sole feature I wish to have on the Tesla. Note: takes a bit to configure it properly, many many options, but it's worth it
  • There is a weird but helpful mode for rear camera, I think it's a projection from the rear camera, to see better how far you are from the back car when parking
  • GPS Navigation is good
  • Autopilot is a big usability mess and dangerous. There are 3 different buttons for it, plus speed adjustment. It's possible, but hard, to activate it on a well marked street, but it simply doesn't work well. It's easy to activate it on the highway and works fairly well, as long as the road is very well marked. As soon as we had a concrete divider, it went straight and I was half a meter away from crashing! You never know exactly what it's doing, because there is no visual feedback like Tesla. But it works well under near perfect circunstances. So why is it dangerous? Because it keeps disabling itself for seconds in a row, without a single warning, and reengaging again! Basically when it gets confused, instead of alerting the driver, it just disables itself!! Another big issue is it's not so easy to disable it completely. Pressing the brake pedal does not disable it permanentely and sometimes it takes over after a few seconds!
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/03/2022, 14:40:29, MikeMelga said:

Everybody has double or triple electricity schedules in Portugal. For examply my FIL pays only 9c/ kWh from 22:00 till 6:00. So when he arrives home at 19:00, he plugs in but the car won't start charging before 22:00. This is important. Together with climate control for departure time in the morning.


I’d think that this model of electricity pricing is not going to be around for much longer, when a significant number of people charge their cars during the night there’ll be no day-night grid imbalance and no reason to encourage night time consumption. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now