Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

[Krieg 15,074]

Ironically plenty of motorbikes contaminate more than a car yet they are not included in the ban.   More ironic, Europe never banned two stroke motorbikes like plenty of other countries in the world did like 20 years ago.   The power of the Vespa.

 

P.S., Two stroke motors have advanced a lot and technically they do not contaminate like before, but such new technology is mostly not rolled out and KTM own it.   Most two stroke scooters and "rollers" use technology from the 60s and they contaminate like no one business.

[Dembo 525]

Mmmmm two stroke. I can smell the fumes just by thinking about it.

[murphaph 9,844]

Ah, memories of riding two strokes on pipe down country lanes. Bliss.

[catjones 1,702]

19 hours ago, Rushrush said:

as soon the only option for a decent EV will be Chinese

 

See Berlin Giga thread.

[murphaph 9,844]

I cannot be the only person who is actively looking to avoid buying a Chinese EV?

[circuits 311]

16 hours ago, murphaph said:

I cannot be the only person who is actively looking to avoid buying a Chinese EV?

 

What counts as a Chinese EV? Manufactured in China? Chinese-only companies? What about American/European companies that have joint partnerships with Chinese manufacturers?

 

Case 1: Tesla

As I try to decipher the ethical and/or quality-criteria being drawn here, the elephant in the room is Tesla. Many have commented that the build quality of Teslas made in Shanghai is better than American-made Teslas.

 

That said, there's also a lot of comments that Berlin-made Teslas have better body & interior workmanship than either Shanghai or US Teslas. Is the upshot that for some manufacturers, the order of desirability is EU > China > US?

 

Or to make this question even more interesting, imagine for a moment that Musk had nothing to do with Tesla anymore: would Teslas built in Shanghai be acceptable?

 

Case 2: VW

If they get shipped to Europe, what about the forthcoming VW EVs built in China? VW has partnered with Horizon Robotics, SAIC, JAC and FAW. Most of these are 50/50 joint ventures but the one with Horizon Robotics is particularly interesting because VW own 60% - China only permitted foreign companies to own a majority stake in local auto manufacturers as of 2020.

 

OK, I have to admit this scenario is unlikely for now at least. The ID.3/ID.4 respectively cost under 20k/24k euro in China but I've read that importing them would be "politically impossible" at this point. VW will instead try to reduce manufacturing costs by having the cheaper ID.2 and Cupra Urban Rebel manufactured in their Martorell, Spain factory. German companies love to milk the cheap labour from the East (Skoda) & South (SEAT).

 

 

[scook17 292]

29 minutes ago, circuits said:

The ID.3/ID.4 respectively cost under 20k/24k euro in China but I've read that importing them would be "politically impossible" at this point.

VW will instead try to reduce manufacturing costs by having the cheaper ID.2 and Cupra Urban Rebel manufactured in their Martorell, Spain factory. German companies love to milk the cheap labour from the East (Skoda) & South (SEAT).

 

ID3 and ID4 list price is 40K in Germany.

How can they cost half of that in China?

[murphaph 9,844]

To me a Chinese EV is one built there mainly. Having said that, I would probably try to avoid even European built Chinese owned brands (assuming say Polestars and Volvos start getting built in Europe). We rely on China already to a dangerous degree. Handing over car design and manufacturing is too far a step for me. It's difficult to avoid buying consumer electronics that are made in China but I draw the line at cars as long as I have an alternative. Yes, I am prepared to üay a few grand more for a European built car of the same spec. It's too important strategically for us to make ourselves more dependent on China than we already are, which is far too much if you ask me.

 

I do believe that there will be consolidation in Europe and the US (bus also probably in China itself!) and that some brands will exist in name only in the future. This trend is nothing new of course. Opel, Audi, Volvo, Skoda, Seat, Fiat etc. already long since ceased to exist as independent vehicle makers, being subsumed by larger companies. That trend will continue. I do not however believe that European car making is doomed because of China. There's no point being energy independent of authoritarian regimes like Russia and the Gulf States only to become transport dependent on China. We need a more arm's length relationship with China, as long as the country remains authoritarian, which it seems likely to do.

[MikeMelga 7,325]

1 hour ago, circuits said:

 

What counts as a Chinese EV? Manufactured in China? Chinese-only companies? What about American/European companies that have joint partnerships with Chinese manufacturers?

 

I think the most important is designed in China, and then manufactured in china.

Designed in China means they will cut corners on R&D.

Manufactured in China means you're giving them money and it's a geopolitical nightmare.

[yesterday 2,027]

Sure we are too dependant on China and things need to change. Its just bad to be dependant on  authoritarian country. 

 

Of course my ideal world is one, where we had a British car industry, with factories in Britain Designing/making cars for the world, but of course that dream is long gone, and today I am happy to have Nission manufacturing cars in Britain as thats the best Britain can hope for.

 

Because Britain is not going to be a world manufacture of cars any time soon, then I would support European Design/manufacturing, after that, with VW leading the pack. After that Tesla, because they at least manufacture in the EU and at least the main company is based in the USA, which has a democracy.  After that, we have China which is speculated to open a factory in the EU.

 

But none of this really matters, people will buy the car they want to buy based on price and how good they think it is. thats whats always dominated the car market and other markets. It will continue like that.

 

If Tesla can continue to make cars at a much lower price than EU/China and is seen as a good car, then they will gain market share, else they will have a reduced share.

 

The EU is considered un competitive, with lots of regulations, look how long it took to build the German Tesla factory, this all cost time/money, lots of employment laws etc, which drive up costs. That's the thing about a democracy, things tend to be slow but people/environment have better rights/ protections, were as in China things are done in a quick way and nobody can get in the way of progress.   authoritarian

 

What we are seeing now with EV's is a bit like what happened in the late 70#s, 80's and 90'a, where the Japanese, took over the the ICE car market, which ended UK owned car production, made massive problems for EU and the US. car producers.

 

 

[circuits 311]

2 hours ago, scook17 said:

 

ID3 and ID4 list price is 40K in Germany.

How can they cost half of that in China?

 

Yes, German vehicle prices are generally quite high compared to China and even North America.

 

Also, Chinese EV prices are low due to government subsidies.

 

Upon release the base-model price after subsidies (Innovationsprämie + Umweltbonus) of the ID.3 and Cupra Born was 27k here. But inflation and greed has pushed up those prices by 5k in the last year.

 

In Canada, for example, the ID.4 is made in the new Chattanooga Tennessee factory and can cost 28k euro after taxes and Federal/Provincial rebates - eg. Quebec. Canada and the US manage lower manufacturing prices as they're a tightly integrated trade block with 380m people, they have somewhat weaker unions, labour & environmental protection.

 

 

[murphaph 9,844]

German cars vary wildly in their pre-tax prices in Europe too. German buyers prefer German cars, so German car makers exploit this and charge Germans a premium to buy them. The pre-tax prices in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland all tend to be lower than the pre-tax price in Germany. That's why re-imports and EU-imports are a thing here.

[Dembo 525]

I think the interesting question is whether China can produce actual "desirable" cars. I've been reading about the MG Cyberster - a proper reasonably priced 2 seat convertible sports car from big bad China. Which is certainly interesting when seemingly all other manufacturers want to bore everyone with one SUV after the other.

[catjones 1,702]

5 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Manufactured in China means you're giving them money and it's a geopolitical nightmare.

 

4 hours ago, yesterday said:

After that Tesla, because they at least manufacture in the EU and at least the main company is based in the USA, which has a democracy.

 

I seem to recall that China was ruled by chairman Mao when treaties were established and trade/manufacturing began in earnest.  Pretty far from democracy back then.  I can't count the number of German, let alone other EU countries that gave their left nut to do business there and still do.

If people are so concerned with countries where politics are not up to their standards, China is the third largest producer of lithium.  Manganese South Africa, cobalt  Democratic Republic of Congo (Democratic is even in their name), graphite China again, nickel Indonesia.  Take your pick.  These wonderful countries supply the battery world.  Boycott them and you'll go without a flashlight much less an EV designed, build and sold by a German company in Germany to Germans.

[fraufruit 42,497]

Quote

 

Cobalt has a long industrial history with a variety of uses. Today it is a metal found in many products ranging from aircraft engines to lithium-ion batteries, including those in electric vehicles. Currently, the largest use of cobalt is in portable consumer electronics like cell phones, laptop computers, and tablets, which are all powered by lithium-ion batteries.

 

While it is true that cobalt is found in the lithium-ion batteries used in many electric vehicles, there is some good news: EV batteries don’t need cobalt to work. In fact, other battery technologies that don’t use cobalt—such as nickel-iron-aluminum cathodes or lithium-iron-phosphate ones—not only exist but are actively being developed for use in new EVs. As a result, electric vehicle manufacturers are transitioning away from cobalt. For instance, Tesla’s current vehicle batteries contain less than five percent cobalt and the company announced in September 2020 that they are developing their own batteries that will be cobalt-free. Others are dramatically reducing the amount of cobalt needed for their batteries, like GM, who last year unveiled a new battery system that uses 70 percent less cobalt than current batteries.

 

 

article here

[catjones 1,702]

11 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

article here

 

Which makes my point.  Nonetheless, battery technology will continue to advance with all kinds of tradeoffs.  My point is, when you boycott a finished product because of political reasons, you must also boycott the components as well.

[Keleth 9,321]

6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I think the most important is designed in China, and then manufactured in china.

Designed in China means they will cut corners on R&D.

Manufactured in China means you're giving them money and it's a geopolitical nightmare.

With your views on unions and workers rights I assumed you´d be a big fan of China.

[murphaph 9,844]

1 hour ago, Dembo said:

I think the interesting question is whether China can produce actual "desirable" cars. I've been reading about the MG Cyberster - a proper reasonably priced 2 seat convertible sports car from big bad China. Which is certainly interesting when seemingly all other manufacturers want to bore everyone with one SUV after the other.

I don't think that's going to be a problem for them. I like several of the Chinese EVs! I just don't want to be partially responsible for killing our own European car making sector by buying one. 

[murphaph 9,844]

41 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

article here

The amount of lithium etc. actually mined is miniscule compared to the amount of iron ore the world mines and nobody even mentions iron ore as some sort of problem:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/10/all-the-metals-we-mined-in-2021-visualized/

[catjones 1,702]

22 hours ago, murphaph said:

I like several of the Chinese EVs! I just don't want to be partially responsible for killing our own European car making sector by buying one. 

 

You, then, are rewarding incompetence.  You aren't killing your EU car making; they shot themselves in the foot.