Posted 15 April 2 minutes ago, keith2011 said: Sorry if this question has already been discussed but will the sale of ICE motorcycles also be banned from 2035? Nope, not affected. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 15 April 52 minutes ago, circuits said: I'm curious if this technique would work at a gas station if you forgot your EC Karte lol. You can pay with any card or with cash at the gas station, it is not like every gas station only accepts their own card. P.S. once I realized I forgot my wallet after pumping, went in and talked to the cashier, I signed a form saying the amount I owed and came the next day and paid. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 15 April My friend and his family are visiting from Serbia today. When he went to the gas station in Berlin and successfully paid with a debit card, they insisted to see his passport before accepting the payment. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 15 April When I bought my first ski suit in Munich, in 1990, I had to show my passport before they would let me use my card. They took a copy of it and want to see my allowance to live in Germany. At that point I could not pay for petrol at the station with a card, it was only accepted on the Autobahn. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 15 April 9 hours ago, Krieg said: You can pay with any card or with cash at the gas station, it is not like every gas station only accepts their own card. I know you're being hyperbolic, but I want to reassure other readers that this is somewhat of an exaggeration. Even Tesla is compatible with other cards starting with Chargemap. So charging stations generally accept a wide range of charging cards. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 15 April 10 hours ago, circuits said: They should accept normal debit and credit cards, you are defending the crappy current situation. Hopefully the government will intervene and stop this nonsense one day. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 9 hours ago, Krieg said: They should accept normal debit and credit cards, you are defending the crappy current situation. Hopefully the government will intervene and stop this nonsense one day. That makes no sense. With that logic, they have to accept coins too! You're just making things super complicated. What about Amazon or online retailers? Should you force them to accept cash too? Or accept purchase orders for those without internet? What about all the range of services that only accept subscription or SEPA payments? Let's cut the crap. A service provider must be able to define payment methods. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: That makes no sense. With that logic, they have to accept coins too! You're just making things super complicated. Complicated would be setting up additional payment methods/cards/infrastructure rather than just accepting the ones that everybody already has. Oh wait. Actually what seems really dumb to me is that EVs and charging networks didn't adopt from day one the system that I believe Tesla always had: I.e. the vehicle is linked to your account and all you have to do is plug it in. No arsing around with any kind of payment methods and you can't forget or lose your card. That's the no-brainer convenience solution that surely everybody would want. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 10 hours ago, Krieg said: They should accept normal debit and credit cards, you are defending the crappy current situation. Hopefully the government will intervene and stop this nonsense one day. Disagreeing with your hyperbole that every charging company requires its own card is definitely not defending the current complicated charging situation compared to simply visiting a gas station and filling up. Besides, I know you're already aware that as of July 2023 Germany mandated that all new chargers must accept debit/credit cards: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=68d7b17e-55e4-413e-98e1-410f05e7c730 The lifespan of an EV charger is about 8-10 years so we'll see a gradual changeover of the majority of chargers over the next 5 or 6 years. fwiw I'd prefer not to be perceived as a cheerleader for EVs. The point of starting this thread was documenting the inevitable changeover, the pros/cons and how to cope. Let me be frank: as it stands, having been raised in an ICE-world, owning an EV instead of an ICE incurs a higher cognitive load. Shit like: - oh, it's near zero degrees outside and my battery is at 15% which supposedly isn't a good combination for a longer period - what charge card is offering good rates this year for my particular driving needs? (AC/DC/Ionity/Tesla Supercharger,etc.) - how much will my range be affected by the current weather? - how much will my battery degrade in the next 5-10 years? - how much more often will I have to change my tires due to the heavier weight and higher torque? - how fast will my EV charge if I decide to charge it right now? Regarding the last point, you could be at a high-speed DC charger and when someone else plugs in their EV, the charging rate suddenly drops because the overall power is decreased. Argh. Anyone owning an EV in the next 5 years (or more) is going to have to reckon with a whole bunch of extra things of which to be aware and keep track. It's not fun. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 1 hour ago, circuits said: what charge card is offering good rates this year for my particular driving needs? *this week 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 4 hours ago, circuits said: - oh, it's near zero degrees outside and my battery is at 15% which supposedly isn't a good combination for a longer period - what charge card is offering good rates this year for my particular driving needs? (AC/DC/Ionity/Tesla Supercharger,etc.) - how much will my range be affected by the current weather? - how much will my battery degrade in the next 5-10 years? - how much more often will I have to change my tires due to the heavier weight and higher torque? - how fast will my EV charge if I decide to charge it right now? We haven't worried about any of the above. Please tell what our extra worries will be in the next 5 years. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April On 15.4.2023, 14:19:09, keith2011 said: Sorry if this question has already been discussed but will the sale of ICE motorcycles also be banned from 2035? Good...question...indeedy...! On the otherhand I´ll be 75 and more interested in Zimmerframes than motorbikes. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April Notice I said cognitive load, not worrying per se. - During the transition, vehicle repair times will increase due to shortages of qualified staff who need high-voltage and technical certification. - Until gas stations start switching en-masse to charging stations, the rising amount of registered EVs on the street appears to be outpacing the charging infrastructure build-up. - Unlike home electricity costs, prices at charging stations are so far not subject to the same government controls. - Battery care is also a new consideration: "Aging of li-ion batteries in EV applications is caused during the three operation modes driving, charging and resting. During resting periods, aging is accelerated with high temperatures and high SoC. While driving, the SoC has the similar influence, however low temperatures result also in an increased battery aging. Especially driving at high SOC in combination with low temperatures is not recommended. A temperature of 25 °C results in highest lifetimes during driving." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286242928_Lifetime_Analyses_of_Lithium-Ion_EV_Batteries "keeping the battery at low [and high] SOC levels for as long as possible reduces the lifetime significantly" https://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/432212/applsci-08-01825-v2.pdf Since most battery warranties guarantee at least 70% capacity after 8 years / 160-190.000 km, it would kinda suck to lose a quarter of your range just because best charging and storage practices weren't followed. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 16 hours ago, Krieg said: Hopefully the government will intervene and stop this nonsense one day. 15 minutes ago, circuits said: prices at charging stations are so far not subject to the same government controls. That's the spirit; bring in the government to control every aspect of the marketplace that made all this possible. EV = German Regulator's wet dream. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 2 hours ago, catjones said: That's the spirit; bring in the government to control every aspect of the marketplace that made all this possible. EV = German Regulator's wet dream. It's all libertarian fun and games until your wallet gets smacked with the realization that Germany has particularly bonkers and predatory cartels* Have you taken a look at the brutal disconnect between commercial and end-consumer electricity prices? Would you be happier if the government hadn't recently introduced price cap of 40ct/kWh for consumers? Oh wait, that doesn't even apply to charging stations. So that's why we're at where we are now. Wild west. And the only reason all charging stations will accept credit/debit cards is thanks to regulation. Governmental overreach clearly sucks, but at some point it gets so reactionary that one may as well all aspire to be "free" like Texans. I hear they have an awesome power grid (/sarcasm/) *The German empire used to be called the Land of the Cartels 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 3 hours ago, catjones said: That's the spirit; bring in the government to control every aspect of the marketplace that made all this possible. EV = German Regulator's wet dream. Yes let´s do away with government regulation. Worked wonders with the banking industry in 2008. Just look at the energy industry in the UK and what companies tend to do when consumers don´t have a lot of choice. Companies have proved time and time again that they have to be regulated because they cannot be trusted to do what is in the best interests of their customers but what is best for their shareholders. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April Perhaps discussed already but China is kicking legacy automotive companies butt. This is the innovator's dilemma is here in full play. Legacy auto makers having made huge profits selling “old tech” in China are about to get a blood nose as China aggressively moves to electric and most are miles behind the Chinese. I expect you'll see a mass exodus out of china as sales fall off a cliff. Here in Europe the fallout will be even worse as soon the only option for a decent EV will be Chinese - even if you EV has a German badge on the front it will be built with Chinese tech. 100% for sure for battery tech - china is cutting edge give it another year or two and the shit will really hit the fan as people wake up to the massive job losses coming down the pipeline. edit: just read the article about Japan having almost no electric cars - gonna be inyto watch this one. Why Your First Electric Car Might Be Chinese https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-10-31/china-s-evs-are-coming-after-fiat-and-volkswagen-are-bmw-and-mercedes-next 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 6 hours ago, circuits said: Notice I said cognitive load, not worrying per se. - During the transition, vehicle repair times will increase due to shortages of qualified staff who need high-voltage and technical certification. I think the transition will be worst. I think most repair shops won't be able to make most of the repairs. Only body work, brakes, and not much more. I think brands will have to do most of the service due to high level of specialization and cheaper costs. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 April 1 hour ago, Rushrush said: Here in Europe the fallout will be even worse as soon the only option for a decent EV will be Chinese - even if you EV has a German badge on the front it will be built with Chinese tech. 100% for sure for battery tech - china is cutting edge ... and Tesla... Tesla is doing something very interesting. As they don't dominate on battery tech, and as battery cost drops considerably compared to the rest of the car, they are investing in cutting down production costs, ignoring the battery. It's working. 1 hour ago, Rushrush said: give it another year or two and the shit will really hit the fan as people wake up to the massive job losses coming down the pipeline. Been saying for years that most traditional OEMs won't survive past 2027-2028. BMW will probably be the most significant. Still, not in 2 years. Make it 4 years. 1 hour ago, Rushrush said: edit: just read the article about Japan having almost no electric cars - gonna be inyto watch this one. Japan is a weird cultural case. They will be able to avoid EVs for longer, as buying a car is tied to the Keiretsu and company culture. An employee usually buys a car from a dealership recommended by the company, with a special price. This will delay EV adoption for some 5 years or more. In theory it could even be like Cuba, with old ICE vehicles dominating for 20 years. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 April On 15/04/2023, 14:19:09, keith2011 said: Sorry if this question has already been discussed but will the sale of ICE motorcycles also be banned from 2035? Given that Motorbikes are not affected or Wohen mobiles. The Petrol station will be a round for some time to come, well after 2035, there will be no sudden drop off of re fuelling stations like some predict here 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
