Posted 23 March 1 hour ago, DarkFuturology said: What are the pros of EVs from your perspective? It seems like for the price of any decent EV you could have an equally impressive ICE car which isn't going to devalue as rapidly, lose its max range, or ever be stuck in a queue for a charging station. ICEs are already getting much harder to shift on the second hand market. I wouldn't at all be so sure about them holding their value. They will soon (probably 2026) cost more than their equivalent EV models but that is absolutely not the same thing as them being worth more. They will just be more expensive to make, not more desirable to own! The used value will continue to plummet if you ask me. There's no future in ICEs. All the major manufacturers are already firmly aboard the BEV train. As time passes the cities will implement ever more stringent clean air regulations. As it stands you cannot enter German cities with ICE vehicles < Euro 4. So, you may not be stuck in a queue for a charger but you will not be allowed to enter the city at all. In reality the battery tech is also rapidly improving and solid state batteries may well be able to offer a full charge in as little as 5 minutes. Batteries can already outlast the usable life of the vehicle and this figure is also improving all the time. But even before solid state batteries are production ready, sodium ion batteries are dramatically reducing the cost of battery packs, which make up the most expensive component, for now. EV prices are going down hard over the next couple of years. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March For those claiming EVs are a cash-cow, Ford is "losing" 3 billion this year from EV sales: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/23/business/ford-ev-losses/index.html And so be it! That's what it costs to research, retool and re-educate your workforce for a new, disruptive technology that will inevitably reduce NOx and CO2 pollution as renewables expand. 12 hours ago, DarkFuturology said: What are the pros of EVs from your perspective? It seems like for the price of any decent EV you could have an equally impressive ICE car which isn't going to devalue as rapidly, lose its max range, or ever be stuck in a queue for a charging station. If one has the possibility to charge at home or use a charger in an apartment garage, then charging is far less of a hassle then refuelling. Furthermore there are still gas station queues in Germany during peak travel periods. My EV pros: - Great driving performance (instant acceleration, 50/50 weight distribution) - My current charging rates and energy efficiency make driving 25-45% cheaper than a comparable Golf 8 diesel - Lower maintenance costs - Cheaper car insurance - Far less motor noise makes driving more enjoyable - Not having to inhale my vehicle's exhaust or fill up at fume-ridden gas stations - Less pollution over the entire vehicle lifecycle, especially if powered by more renewable energy sources 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March Don't feed the trolls. The internet keeps showing me ads for second hand Borns and sometimes Teslas with higher prices than new ones. Demand is high. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March 42 minutes ago, circuits said: - Great driving performance (instant acceleration, 50/50 weight distribution) - My current charging rates and energy efficiency make driving 25-45% cheaper than a comparable Golf 8 diesel - Lower maintenance costs - Cheaper car insurance - Far less motor noise makes driving more enjoyable - Not having to inhale my vehicle's exhaust or fill up at fume-ridden gas stations - Less pollution over the entire vehicle lifecycle, especially if powered by more renewable energy sources I am not so sure about two of your pros. Not sure what exactly you meant with great driving performance, but if we are talking about how good the car drives, people often confuse instant acceleration with good driving. Many EVs have good acceleration (not all of them) but that's just one of the many pieces that make a car driving good. And while EVs are advanced a lot, there are not there yet if you compare them with ICEs with good driving. I expect this to change with the time of course. And about cheaper insurance, at least in Germany that can be discussed. Last time I checked VK insurance for a Tesla 3 costed up to three times the price of a similar ICE. I am not sure about nowadays, but I understand why the insurance is so expensive, even the smallest accident costs a lot, and because of the repair costs it is easy to get the car totaled. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March I agree with Krieg. There are EVs with very slow acceleration but these are in the minority. One should be aware that they do exist however! There are also surely some EVs with poor handling, just as there are loads of ICEs with poor handling. The steering and suspension still needs to be engineered well, regardless of the power train used. Some cars are much better than others in both ICE and EV forms. Personally I think we are at a real turning point in EV development. The (effective) ban on ICEs from 2035 (even if e-fuels are allowed in new vehicles registered after then, they are so expensive to make that hardly any fool will buy a vehicle that needs them!) will see and is already seeing massive amounts of research and development going into EVs. This research will continue to pay dividends and I am sure we will be seeing ranges comparable to ICEs by the time the ban is in force and also that DC rapid charging by then will offer recharging at speeds comparable to filling up at a petrol station. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March 2 hours ago, Dembo said: Don't feed the trolls. The internet keeps showing me ads for second hand Borns and sometimes Teslas with higher prices than new ones. Demand is high. There is a flood of second hand Born's on the market because the asking prices are too high. Frankly, most are trying to sell them for more than what they paid for after the subsidies, even after 6-10 months and 5000 or more km! On the Born forum sellers are moaning about how much less they're selling for, mainly because of the average 17% immediate depreciation that any new car gets the moment its sold, because of Tesla lowering their prices, and less demand due to inflation and economic belt-tightening. 1 hour ago, Krieg said: I am not so sure about two of your pros. Not sure what exactly you meant with great driving performance, I wrote exactly what I mean: acceleration and better weight distribution. Maybe it's just me, but having a large amount of responsive torque (and no turbo lag!) feels great, even within the confines of adhering to speed limits and driving like a sane and reasonable person. Of course there are crappier outliers, but I think it's fair to speak of the majority which are sold here - just look at the top-selling list on the previous page. I'd be very interested to see any reviews of those which claim they have sub-par handling. In my experience after driving a few different EVs, these two aforementioned factors more than compensate for the extra battery weight. Even a Renault Zoe is snappy to drive. fwiw my yardstick here are late 2010's Golf R, Audi A6 & A4 Allroad which I drive for weeks at a time when I visit family in Canada. Re. Insurance: check out HUK24 which has been in the news lately for undercutting everyone else. HUK has been OK for me in the last 8 years so I don't expect any unpleasant surprises with HUK24. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March 1 hour ago, circuits said: Re. Insurance: check out HUK24 which has been in the news lately for undercutting everyone else. HUK has been OK for me in the last 8 years so I don't expect any unpleasant surprises with HUK24. as long as you never have a claim against them, in which case you’ll always need a lawyer and some guts as the standard HUK24 practice is to deny, block everything and hope you give up -> hence the cheaper prices. They’re not getting my money anymore. Though I guess that for Haftpflicht they’re fine. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March I use Emover24 "Pauschalversicherung" for about 1,200€ per year, and I'm very happy with them. Because I hadn't ever owned a car in Europe and hadn't owned a car in the US for years before I moved to Munich, my rates on "regular" insurance were through the roof. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 24 March Comparatively speaking their ratings seem acceptable: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/huk24.de Besides, every insurance company will try to screw you. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March BYD reports strong sales growth despite Tesla price cuts https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/byd-reports-strong-sales-growth-despite-tesla-price-cuts-145457642.html China’s BYD motors posted huge fourth-quarter results — and it’s shaking off Tesla’s big price-cut war. BYD, the Warren Buffett-backed “new energy” vehicle maker, reported quarterly profit for the fourth quarter of $1.06 billion (7.3 billion yuan), up from $87.4 million (602 million yuan) a year earlier. That represents over a 1,100% return, or 11-fold increase, year over year. Gross margins for the automaker increased to 20.3%, surging past the 3.7% it notched a year ago. Looks like Tesla will have to compete, in the future. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March 18 minutes ago, yesterday said: China’s BYD motors posted huge fourth-quarter results — and it’s shaking off Tesla’s big price-cut war. Looks like Tesla will have to compete, in the future. Very misleading title. First, those numbers include mostly hybrids. Second, their EV margins are very low after prices, around $1500 per car, 10x less than Tesla! Third, they reduced a shift on EV production, they actually plan to sell less EVs in nearby future: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/byd-reduces-shifts-two-ev-assembly-plants-china-sources-2023-03-21/ Fourth, they barely overlap! BYD sells mostly cheap cars. As soon as Tesla introduces the refreshed Model 3 and later the small car, then that's when the competition with BYD starts. TBH, I was very surprised that the top competitor for Tesla was actually so behind in margins. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March On 3/24/2023, 9:46:50, Krieg said: And about cheaper insurance, at least in Germany that can be discussed. Last time I checked VK insurance for a Tesla 3 costed up to three times the price of a similar ICE. I am not sure about nowadays, but I understand why the insurance is so expensive, even the smallest accident costs a lot, and because of the repair costs it is easy to get the car totaled. I'm paying around 1400€ for Vollkasko with Allianz. The Mercedes costed about the same when I had Vollkasko. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March On 3/23/2023, 8:41:16, DarkFuturology said: What are the pros of EVs from your perspective? It seems like for the price of any decent EV you could have an equally impressive ICE car which isn't going to devalue as rapidly, lose its max range, or ever be stuck in a queue for a charging station. Your ICE car will devalue quickly when fuel pumps and repair shops start closing, cities start forbidding it. Nobody will give you a good value for your ICE in a few years. Queue for charging station? Where? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March 4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Very misleading title. First, those numbers include mostly hybrids. Thats because some people prefer Hybrids 4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Second, their EV margins are very low after prices, around $1500 per car, 10x less than Tesla! Margins are normally lower on cheaper cars, thats just normal 4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Third, they reduced a shift on EV production, they actually plan to sell less EVs in nearby future: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/byd-reduces-shifts-two-ev-assembly-plants-china-sources-2023-03-21/ True, there is a general downturn in China at the moment, maybe it will pick up later. Of course Tesla reduced prices to maintain demand 4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Fourth, they barely overlap! BYD sells mostly cheap cars. As soon as Tesla introduces the refreshed Model 3 and later the small car, then that's when the competition with BYD starts. yep, the volume produce is at the lower end of the market, just look the street in Munich, its full of cheaper cars, with more expensive cars being sold in lower numbers. 4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: TBH, I was very surprised that the top competitor for Tesla was actually so behind in margins. As, said as the number of EV's grows and more compition comes, margins will fall across the sector, except for the very high proce cars. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March In one year, we only had to wait for a charger one time for about 5 minutes. We just did a trip to Italy and weren't very happy with the charger situation there. None directly on the Autostrada. We had to pay the toll, get off, drive some kilometers, charge and then pull another ticket and get back on the Autostrada. At one point coming home, we had a planned charging stop only to find the exit we needed was closed. Panic ensued. We managed to make it to some Ionity chargers located in an outlet shopping mall's garage. Again, some kilometers away. Having said that, we made pretty good time and I bought a pair of shoes in the mall. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March BYD's extraordinary level of vertical integration is sometimes cited as the reason they have managed to increase their profit margins so dramatically. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March Thank you @fraufruit, your honest input is highly appreciated. Same goes go @CincyInDE. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March 1 hour ago, murphaph said: BYD's extraordinary level of vertical integration is sometimes cited as the reason they have managed to increase their profit margins so dramatically. Correct. That's why German, Japanese and US automotive are doomed. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March 2 hours ago, yesterday said: BYD reports strong sales growth despite Tesla price cuts BTW, forgot to mention those are Q4 2022 numbers. They are severally down on Q1 due to Tesla's price war. Final numbers are not known yet, but my understanding is they are at least 100.000 cars below Q4. They are probably 15% down compared to Q4, so yeah, they were hit hard by Tesla price war. So, bullshit article. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 30 March 31 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Correct. That's why German, Japanese and US automotive are doomed. I wouldn't go that far Mike. Do your really believe that there will be no US, Japanese or European car makers in 2035? 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
