Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

[MikeMelga 7,312]

22 minutes ago, Krieg said:

That's why not so long ago Tesla announced they are moving out of 12v lead-acid batteries and they will use 48v Lithium batteries.   Lithium batteries can stand deep discharges much better.    48v is a weird choice though, the whole reason of using 12v was to be able to buy OEM car parts in the market.   Nobody uses 48v, cars are 12v and trucks are 24v.    I assume they want to increase the voltage that much to be able to save money by using thinner cables, but that's just an speculation.

 

Before moving to a 48V architecture, Tesla moved to a 15(?)V lithium battery about 2 years ago. The benefits are much longer lifetime and especially, it's possible to accurately track when the battery will fail. So you might have a failure every 8-10 years and the car will tell you months in advance. That's why they can break compatibility and ignore the 12V OEM car parts.

 

 

48V is the highest voltage that is rated as "human safe". My guess is it's not only about saving on cables, but also on charging systems voltage drop from 400V to 48V.

[Dembo 525]

VW ID2 meant to cost €25K...

 

VW ID.2all: endlich ein echter Elektro-Volkswagen - AUTO BILD

 

 

[yesterday 2,022]

Looks good

[circuits 311]

https://insideevs.com/news/657415/volkswagen-id2-all-concept-previews-the-peoples-electric-car/

 

Wow 490 litre trunk compared to 385 in the Born/ID.3 - and overall interior is 100 litres larger despite being 25cm shorter. The WLTP range of 450km is also 25km more. Excellent use of space all around, thanks to the decent 220hp FWD motor placement.  

 

The dash and controls look like a huge improvement with real controls on the steering wheel and proper backlit climate controls buttons under the main 12.9" display. Interior is a step up.

 

Best part is that it's not boring and anodyne like the ID.3.

 

The clock is ticking however for VW to make a huge leap with their software. For me so far it's serviceable but has too many rough edges. They also need a far more powerful infotainment cpu compared to the current ID line-up which uses a Qualcomm Snapdragon 820A (automotive) from 2016.

 

Finally, my guess is that in 2025, 25k will get you a very base model: so likely no rear speakers, no DCC, no HUD, no Kessy keyless entry, no heated steering wheel or electric seats, no heat pump, no matrix LED headlights, no ACC, no Park- or Travel Assist, no rear camera let alone 360 cameras, maybe even no Navi (!) - and that's still provided inflation doesn't spiral out of control.

[circuits 311]

Oh I wanted to add: I'd wager that the ID.2 build quality and performance/handling will be top notch ...so comparable to my Born which is a mechanically solid machine with excellent fit and finish - no panel gaps, no flimsy parts and trim, no weird noises and creaks, quiet interior, excellent transverse handling.

 

The interior materials on mine could use less hard plastic though, but the ID.2 looks like an improvement. 

 

It's gonna be a slugfest soon against Chinese EV manufacturers so VW will really have to leverage their build quality as a selling point.

[Dembo 525]

If it is €25K that's a lot cheaper than the current ID3 - okay smaller car, but it'll have mostly the same stuff including presumably the same size batteries. Have they figured out how to make them much cheaper in order to compete with China and if so is a big price cut for the other models coming? Has VW just been profiteering up to now?  

[circuits 311]

58 minutes ago, Dembo said:

If it is €25K that's a lot cheaper than the current ID3 -  

 

The base price of the Cupra Born when I ordered it Jan. 2022 was €27.500 - before subsidies it was €37k.

 

So if you bought during the period of the maximum subsidies it was barely more than the proposed 25k for the ID.2, especially as it had thousands in base model options above the ID.3: heat pump, heated leather steering wheel, contour seats, 12" display, progressive sport steering, RGB ambient lighting and a much nicer interior.

 

However, without the subsidies I'd say from a consumer perspective it was overpriced by 10-15% compared to similar ICE offerings.

 

BUT... do you realize how much it costs to convert a factory like the original Trabant factory in Zwickau to VW's first all-electric plant, including retraining thousands of employees to avoid layoffs? Or building the Gigafactory? Or the R&D costs for all the new tech?

 

I wouldn't say the subsidies were just a cash cow, but rather helped make it possible for manufacturers to switch over. Tesla had the advantage of a blank slate whereas the rest of the industry didn't have that privilege due to pre-existing means and methods. It's not socially responsible or viable to just fire all ICE-related employees, right? Like it or not, there would be major social upheaval on Germany if the auto industry didn't adapt. 

 

There are already going to be 10-20% job losses during the changeover to electric.

[circuits 311]

(Oops - double-post)

[murphaph 9,814]

I like it a lot. I like that it is recognisable as a VW. I do NOT like the current ID models at all and I don't like Teslas either. All too concepty inside for me, too clinical. I like cars with buttons and for the car to look like a normal car, just with an electric power train. I don't like the "no air intake" look of some EVs (especially the MG4). This is much closer to the inside of the Megane E Tech, but unfortunately VW seems to be sticking with their in-house OS. Renault-Nissan is using Android Automotive OS, which I much prefer. If I have a car with built in sat-nav, I will still use my Android phone with google maps because it will show real-time traffic and just generally be far more up to date. I know I could (presumably) use VW's Android Auto and link my phone to the car but I would prefer if the car was natively Android. Having said that, if the car in pics is anything like what they say you will get for 25k (presumably after subsidies?) then it would be hard to justify the Megane's price tag. 

 

I have been wondering to myself what the hell VW etc. are going to do about the imminent competition from BYD and other Chinese makers. I guess this is their first real response to say "we can do low prices too".

[Krieg 15,027]

In theory that VW ID2 is the car I would buy right now if it was available.  It ticks so many boxes, it looks like the perfect city EV and done by a car maker that knows how to make cars.   But then I expect they stick to their dumb old way of doing things, probably the 25k price (which I expect to be before subsidies, if there is any by 2026) is the entry level price and they will gate some basic features in "packages" with 5 other features no one wants.   I really like the Tesla approach, give almost no choices and make the entry level one the one most people would be happy with.

 

Probably we will see soon some offers in the same realm from the usual car makers and I *really* wish they eat Tesla's lunch.

 

This car and the Toyota-BYD alliance is to my personal wishes the best EV news of the year.

[murphaph 9,814]

I'd even say this car would be fine for a Berlin - Munich run. It'll need a couple of charges but if that 10-80% time is to be believed it's not much longer than you'd spend at a petrol station.

 

But, and it's a big but...they don't mention towing capacity. If they do another ID3 job and let you mount a bike rack and nothing else then I would be out unfortunately.

 

For most people though that won't make a difference. This is a car that will surely eat into the Model 3 market quite easily I would have thought.

[yesterday 2,022]

if everything that is written comes to be  ( and its a big IF, with EV's ), then it  sounds perfect as a second hand car for me for the car after next.

 

I also hate, the lack of buttons on current EV's, I just do not want to do everything through the screen interface and especially not with a buggie and slow interface. But I am not so picky about features, as long as it has a range of 450km, and it can charge in 18 mins, like the Iconiq 5 can, I would accept other minor down sides. Towing is not really an issue for me. Yeah, I do not know what the issues are for towing with an ID 3, maybe its the new battery friendly base that VW developed thats the problem. If so I expect them to use this new base for the ID2 as well, so it will have the same proble.

 

Maybe this is  wake up call for Tesla as well, maybe they spend some of this 18 billion cash pile and get the Model 2, program running early.

 

I still find it difficult to believe, VW can make a car that cheap, but I certainly hope it works out. 

 

I totally agree, the return of normal looking cars is a big plus in my book, but I still would want to buy the technically better car rather than a car I like the looks of.

 

[fraufruit 42,185]

29 minutes ago, yesterday said:

I still find it difficult to believe, VW can make a car that cheap, but I certainly hope it works out. 

 

25k is still out of reach for most people.

 

Yes, we do love the "buttons" in our Ioniq 5.

 

Side note, Himself and his buddy went to the Ferrari museum the other day and they both said people were staring at our car as much as at the Ferraris. We have not seen an Ioniq in Italy so far and we've been here a week.

[yesterday 2,022]

8 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

25k is still out of reach for most people.

 

Agreed, but a lot more people will be able to afford a 25K car than a 35K car, so if the car  is produced in enough numbers, there will be a larger market for second hand cheaper EV's. Which is good. Thats the point where I will buy an EV.

 

 

8 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Side note, Himself and his buddy went to the Ferrari museum the other day and they both said people were staring at our car as much as at the Ferraris. We have not seen an Ioniq in Italy so far and we've been here a week.

Enjoy the holiday!

[fraufruit 42,185]

Thanks! We are enjoying the food and wine the most. Oh, and our friends from Seattle.

[murphaph 9,814]

Bit of a review and interview with VW's CEO in English:

 

[murphaph 9,814]

It seems that almost every few days another new EV design is unveiled. Ford has announced the Explorer, based on the VW platform that's under the id4. It will be built in Cologne, which is being repurposed as a pure EV car plant. No range or towing capacity figures yet but surely a Ford Explorer will have to allow decent towing! Ford has also committed to 100% BEVs in Europe by 2030. Wissing is such a fucking idiot really. The big car makers in Germany all want to know for sure that ICEs are dead so they can focus all their energy on BEVs. Only Porsche seems to want to keep ICEs alive. Germany is being made to look very foolish internationally too, again.

 

 

[Janx Spirit 11,159]

Thought this interesting:

 

"The 20 Best Selling Electric Vehicles in Germany — February 2023"

 

 

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/tesla-model-y-2-best-selling-automobile-in-germany/

[circuits 311]

One of the obvious differences between Tesla and other manufacturers is they only have 2 vehicles that really sell - the Model Y and the Model 3. In February they only sold 20 Model S and 9 Model X in Germany.

 

Whereas a company like the VW Group has a wide range of EV's from VW, Audi, Cupra, Skoda & Porsche.

This gives a better overview:

 

[DarkFuturology 1]

What are the pros of EVs from your perspective?

 

It seems like for the price of any decent EV you could have an equally impressive ICE car which isn't going to devalue as rapidly, lose its max range, or ever be stuck in a queue for a charging station.