Posted 11 March By far the most complicated part of an ICE car is the engine and transmission and the electronic management thereof. It is absolutely no wonder that by eliminating these difficult to engineer items, that the world of car-making will be opened up to many more players. Personally I believe I will buy a European EV when the time comes, even if it costs more for the same spec. China has us by the balls enough as it is. We need to make sure we retain the capability to make vehicles here in Europe. We should be repatriating manufacturing, not offshoring even more of it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 11 March 4 hours ago, Dembo said: On that basis cars have been electronics for a long time. In fact what we've been told is the electronics in EVs are actually must simpler than for ICEs, pardoxical though that sounds. They are not simpler. The difference is some EV manufacturers (Tesla, Chinese) are starting from scratch, meaning they don't have the legacy OEM tier suppliers. Meaning they can do simpler electronics. But engine, charging and battery control is quite complicated. Getting a good one-pedal driving to work is not simple. On the other hand, VW still has hundreds of chips on modules from different suppliers all over the car... 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 12 March 13 hours ago, Dembo said: Are you quoting your own twitter post? I wasn't quite sure. On that basis cars have been electronics for a long time. In fact what we've been told is the electronics in EVs are actually must simpler than for ICEs, pardoxical though that sounds. Yeah was on my phone so bit of pain to copy and paste 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 13 March Looks like BYD is uping the game. https://www.ft.com/content/966dbbda-ad05-44c9-a0d2-8e9340cd692e If you hit the paywall, just put Tesla rival BYD smashes profit record ahead of European push, into google search, click the FT page and read But basically Revenue for the three-month period at the world’s largest electric vehicle maker reached Rmb1,17.1bn, up 116 per cent year on year, a Hong Kong stock exchange filing showed on Friday. BYD dominated the market with a 30 per cent share in the year to September, 21 percentage points ahead of the next competitor, SAIC-GM-Wuling, in China 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 13 March BYD makes money with hybrids. Right now it's making tiny profit with EVs. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March There are many things I can´t get my head around in life and this thread is also one. Many posters on here tell us that ICEs are killing people and we need EVs to save people and the environment etc etc. Then many of these very same posters celebrate the fact Tesla is making 10k profit per car, could it be that the profit is more important than the actual health benefits of the car despite protestations? Should people not be calling for those manufacturers to cut their profits as they´re producing a product that is no longer a convenience but something that will save lives? I´ve yet to see one post on here celebrating the profits of drug or water or energy companies, in fact, quite the opposite. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March Well, all car sales exports to the USA from Europe and elsewhere will soon evaporate: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxcenter.shtml#:~:text=New%20Plug%2Din%20and%20Fuel%20Cell%20Electric%20Vehicles%20Purchased%20Before,capacity%20and%20manufacturer%20phase%2Dout. https://electrek.co/2023/02/03/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/ https://electrek.co/2022/09/19/kia-will-produce-electric-vehicles-in-the-us-in-2024-to-get-ev-tax-credit/ Basically as a US person, you get up to $7500 USD refunded from your taxes on a new EV and up to $4000 USD on a second hand EV/PHEV. Requirement is the following is sourced from the USA or a free trade country (Canada, Mexico, Korea...) The 40% battery critical minerals requirement (2023) increases to 50% in 2024, 60% in 2025, 70% in 2026 and 80% in 2027 The 50% battery components requirement (2023) increases to 60% in 2024, 70% in 2026, 80% in 2027, 90% in 2028 and 100% in 2029 In addition, final assembly must take place in the USA. So for a new EV buyer, $7.5K USD represents quite a considerable amount of the purchase price. Basically it will mean unless you produce and source in the USA, or the list of 'friendly countres', you will have no market, as your EV will be too expensive compared to 'local' counterparts. Countries without free trade agreements notable include the European Union, Japan and China. No wonder V.W. announced this week it will make it's next battery plant in Canada: https://www.dw.com/en/volkswagen-to-make-electric-vehicle-batteries-in-canada/a-64975227 I wonder how many cars German car makers exported EV's to the USA and how this will affect German jobs. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March A quick Google search throws up this: "BMW (BMWYY), Volkswagen (VLKAF) and Mercedes, which is owned by Daimler (DDAIF), all have major manufacturing plants in the United States and employ nearly 50,000 American workers" 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 3 hours ago, Keleth said: There are many things I can´t get my head around in life and this thread is also one. Many posters on here tell us that ICEs are killing people and we need EVs to save people and the environment etc etc. This is why I cannot understand, why EV;s ,companies should get a subsidy , if they are making more than 5 or 10 % profit per car they sell. Lets help the EV transition, by supporting companies that need help and not helping where they do not need it. 1 hour ago, scook17 said: Well, all car sales exports to the USA from Europe and elsewhere will soon evaporate: Agreed I do not see why the EU has not responded to this US un fair action, we in the EU need places extra taxes on some US products to compensate. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March Trade war! Who would that benefit in the end? Who would pay for it? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 15 hours ago, MikeMelga said: BYD makes money with hybrids. Right now it's making tiny profit with EVs. But that's surely where all EV makers are heading? ICE Cars are high volume, low margin items. I don't see why EVs will not follow that model in future. BYD is a major force to be reckoned with given its level of vertical integration. I hope it doesn't do as well as I think it will do because we're dependent enough on the Chinese as things stand. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March There's talk of the US extending the IRA materials list to cover EU countries. The EU would then reciprocate in its equivalent measures. This would be a win-win for the free world on each side of the North Atlantic. We should be trading more with each other anyway and less with China. North American and European firms tend to respect the rule of law and IP rights, Chinese firms, not so much. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 1 hour ago, murphaph said: But that's surely where all EV makers are heading? ICE Cars are high volume, low margin items. I don't see why EVs will not follow that model in future. BYD is a major force to be reckoned with given its level of vertical integration. I hope it doesn't do as well as I think it will do because we're dependent enough on the Chinese as things stand. Just stating that BYD is barely profitable with EVs right now. As comparison, their hybrids are very profitable. For the moment it seems BYD is by far Tesla's strongest competitor, but even them can't match Tesla's margins. And that's even before Tesla dives into cheaper smaller cars, which is what BYD does. I was quite surprised by this. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March Its interesting about the talk of a EU/US IRA deal, I just think will the UK be included ???, I guess much speculation could be made ??? Its also important to note that BYD, is going to build a new factory in the EU, so it will not transfer jobs to china from the EU. This is welcome for EU, but may put pressure on the IRA deal, because BYD could then export cars from the EU to the US, without having to pay this extra TAX. I welcome BYD in EU ( just as I welcome Tesla in EU ), as it provides EU jobs and the BYD cars are more affordable than Tesla etc. If Tesla is not currently interested in the small car market ( < 23000 Euro ) then BYD can provide it and maybe it will encourage Tesla to make a small car at a lower price for the mass market. The trade war is already there, the IRA, makes EU EV's more expensive in the US, if imported, Europe has to get a deal or respond with extra taxes for the US imports, otherwise the US gains a competitive advantage. We should remember that, yes the EU has a lot of factories in the US, but they mostly produce ICE cars, only a small number of Europe owned factories in the US actually produce EV's. you could say that, this IRA, will encourage EU manufactures to go green faster in the US. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 2 hours ago, yesterday said: This is why I cannot understand, why EV;s ,companies should get a subsidy , if they are making more than 5 or 10 % profit per car they sell. So oil subsidies are OK, EV subsidies are not? Geez... Without state help, EV revolution would take 10-15 more years, which is an environmental fuckup and an geopolitical fuckup! I seriously can't understand how people can't get their minds on this: EUROPE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH OIL NOR GAS! The world will be much better off when we get rid of fossil fuel, but for Europe, expect a huge return. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 6 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Just stating that BYD is barely profitable with EVs right now. As comparison, their hybrids are very profitable. For the moment it seems BYD is by far Tesla's strongest competitor, but even them can't match Tesla's margins. And that's even before Tesla dives into cheaper smaller cars, which is what BYD does. I was quite surprised by this. I would be interested to know more about this, got any inks which show the profit margins between hybrids and EV's at BYD ? 3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: So oil subsidies are OK, EV subsidies are not? Geez... Oil companies are taxed in a very heavy way, Something like 70% tax on a litre of ICE fuel !!! Road TAX is much higher on ICE cars than EV's You pay TAX when you buy an ICE car Non of these TAXES are put on EV's, EV;s get all the subsidies not Oil companies Oil companies are not given usbsidies , you are wrong on this. Oil is currently so expensive, because the oil companies limit how much they produce, to keep the prices high, if they wanted they could produce much more oil and drop the price by a high margin. It is the cheapest form of energy, it just its killing our plant and should be got rid of it. 3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: Without state help, EV revolution would take 10-15 more years, I am in favour, of state to help to speed up the death of ICE, but it should not be directed to manufactures who produce high cost vehicles with a high margin, it should be directed at cars for the normal person, ie around 20000 Euro. Thats were we will see the biggest environmental gains. 3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: I seriously can't understand how people can't get their minds on this: EUROPE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH OIL NOR GAS! The biggest reduction of emissions, will come from running steel mills on Hydrogen, and other very high energy situations, EV's cars will help reduce in city emissions, but ICE cars are not the biggest planet killer, its the other stuff thats makes the differance. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March According to ADAC, most of the help needed by EV are due to starter battery. Don't know if the user forget to charge or something technical that leads to this. I expected starter battery to be the last thing that could break as car is always charged. https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/e-autos-adac-pannen-101.html 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March On 11/03/2023, 19:29:23, Dembo said: Are you quoting your own twitter post? I wasn't quite sure. On that basis cars have been electronics for a long time. In fact what we've been told is the electronics in EVs are actually must simpler than for ICEs, pardoxical though that sounds. On 11/03/2023, 19:29:23, Dembo said: Are you quoting your own twitter post? I wasn't quite sure. On that basis cars have been electronics for a long time. In fact what we've been told is the electronics in EVs are actually must simpler than for ICEs, pardoxical though that sounds. My bad, not my twitter feed - wish it was - mine is mostly stupid shit post 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 23 minutes ago, vivanco said: According to ADAC, most of the help needed by EV are due to starter battery. Don't know if the user forget to charge or something technical that leads to this. I expected starter battery to be the last thing that could break as car is always charged. https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/e-autos-adac-pannen-101.html The "starter" battery is normally a lead-acid 12v battery. It is normally not charged from the car main battery, it is mostly only charged when the car is being charged. But there have been software issues with EVs and the 12v battery is not charged. For example the Ioniq 5 had some problems when the main battery is discharged very low, when connected to the charger only the main battery is charged and the 12v is not. Teslas as well have sometimes software issues and the car needs a "reset". If the 12v battery is deeply discharged the car won't start, and worse, you might be locked out if the car doors and trunk can be opened only electronically. Teslas have a contingency for this, you can open the driver seat with a 9v battery (the small rectangular ones). On top of that, in the way those lead-acid batteries are used on EVs it really shorten their lives, lead-acid batteries are not meant to be deep discharged. In ICEs this was not a problem, the battery was used mostly just to start the car and the alternator would immediately take over and recharge it. In EVs the 12v battery is not recharged during the daily use, the opposite, it will be continuedly discharged so long the car is not connected to a charger. That's why not so long ago Tesla announced they are moving out of 12v lead-acid batteries and they will use 48v Lithium batteries. Lithium batteries can stand deep discharges much better. 48v is a weird choice though, the whole reason of using 12v was to be able to buy OEM car parts in the market. Nobody uses 48v, cars are 12v and trucks are 24v. I assume they want to increase the voltage that much to be able to save money by using thinner cables, but that's just an speculation. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 14 March 4 hours ago, yesterday said: I would be interested to know more about this, got any inks which show the profit margins between hybrids and EV's at BYD ? https://qz.com/china-s-byd-sells-more-cars-but-tesla-makes-eight-times-1849771729 This is for overall profit. Quite low, but it's a A, B and C segment company. About 40% of BYD are BEVs, but I can't find the profit per type of vehicle, this was discussed last December in detail, before Tesla started the price war. 4 hours ago, yesterday said: Oil companies are taxed in a very heavy way, Something like 70% tax on a litre of ICE fuel !!! Road TAX is much higher on ICE cars than EV's You pay TAX when you buy an ICE car Non of these TAXES are put on EV's, EV;s get all the subsidies not Oil companies Oil companies are not given usbsidies , you are wrong on this. Yes they do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_subsidies 4 hours ago, yesterday said: Oil is currently so expensive, because the oil companies limit how much they produce, to keep the prices high, if they wanted they could produce much more oil and drop the price by a high margin. It is the cheapest form of energy, it just its killing our plant and should be got rid of it. No, solar is much cheaper than oil. Solar is the cheapest form of energy EVER. And without subsidies! 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
