Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

[Krieg 15,104]

44 minutes ago, murphaph said:

idk, I mean when I roam on a foreign network there are several companies involved too. They all claimed that EU roaming would devastate their business but none of that happened and we take roam like at home for granted in the EU today. I think at the very least it should be possible to roam within your own country and pay a set fee for AC charging. DC charging I see as a "premium product" that requires really significant investment. I see an argument for letting the market figure those prices out but I would like to see forced competition in DC charging sites along the Autobahn. No one company should be handed over a given rest area for their sole use. The rest area should be divided up into plots, at least 2, that independent operators should operate, so that no single company has a monopoly at a given site. Of course this would only apply to publicly owned land like rest areas. If a private land owner wishes to set up DC charging he or she should be free to charge whatever they like. Eventually the market will regulate that too, like with petrol station prices. 

 

EV charging "roaming" can't be really compared to data roaming.   From we've seen the real money is not in making the chargers, not even in installing them.  The money is in running them, which means selling the electricity, maintaining the chargers and running the software for the charger itself and for the payments.    This in Europe is going at the moment in a segmented way.   Different providers trying to get a piece of the cake.   The "hardware" maintenance is kind of a challenge, for whatever reason things get broken easily, which is very ironic because gas stations are mostly rock solid and they are as well self service.   Maybe we are not there yet in the quality, but all these has at the moment high costs, so selling the electricity at the same price as home deliver electricity would be difficult.

 

"Roaming" the electricity itself is probably not the problem, in Germany the electricity all come from the same bucket at the end.  But a seller will want to recoup his investment.

 

Maybe doable in the long term, but it won't happen soon as I far as I understand.   And this will create a big disadvantage for the people who can't charge at home.    The target should be that everyone can charge at home, contrary to what other people think (just charging in shopping centers).

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Is there a real need or indeed any plans to ban the use of diesel engines in heavy construction? I don't see a practical alternative.

 

I have no idea if they will be banned.  I just said the ban is for vehicles in general and there is a vast different type of vehicles and EVs only cover at the moment a very small segment.

 

When is the fireman truck EV coming?

[murphaph 9,854]

3 minutes ago, Krieg said:

When is the fireman truck EV coming?

 

 

[yesterday 2,039]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Huh? Renault Group engineers passed on their experiences from the Leaf and Zoe to VW and decided not to learn from these (vast) experiences themselves? Sounds, well bizarre.

What I mean is the Zoe  ( also the lief ), had no battery management system in the beginning ( i guess like the e golf ). Over time the Zoe has some form of battery management system. The Zoe still uses flowing air over the battery pack to cool it, thats why it still has an open air cooling grill. It has how in the very latest versions, got provision, to direct some of the  Air conditioner air over the battery pack in hotter situations. The Norwegian, version of the Zoe now has some form of heating as well, but not the central European version.

 

How much this hepls only time will tell. 

Tesla/VW/Kia, however has gone for a BMS, which acticily cools and warms the batteries on demand, Tesla data shows the battery degrades very little over time. 

 

As said we need time, to show how the battery system will de grade, in the Renault solution, it could well be that the Tesla approach is an over kill, and the Renault way is enough. Obviously Tesla/kia/ and VW cost more than the Zoe, but to be fair Zoe, is more of a city car than the others.

 

I do not see any link between Renault and VW. VW developed the e-golf ( about the same time Renault made the Zoe), and is currently on with the ID3 /4.

 

 

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

 

 Later Leafs have thermal management and owners of these cars report very good battery capacity after several years.

As said already we just do not know, we will have to wait at least 7 to 10 years to see how effective it is in preserving the battery.

 

 

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Renault Group effectively committed their resources to BEV research and abandoned fuel cell stuff a long time ago.

 

Fuel cell cars were only really a concept for the future for all manufactures except Toyota, who make the only Hydrogen powered cars. Most main stream manufactures concentrated on Petrol and Diesel, until Diesel gate, Battery cars before diesel gate were a novelty. ie very few sales.

 

 

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

The new Megane looks a far better car than the ID3 to me. It also has a 5 star NCAP rating. It has a super fast Android Automotive OS, not that laggy UI VW has. 22kW AC charging as standard, heat pump as standard. Range and all that seems comparable to the ID3. The ID3 allows you to mount a bike rack. The Megane allows you to tow a 900kg trailer.

 

 

 

Looking at the list from circuits of used EV's, I would not touch them with a barge poll. It just illustrates how bad the choice is at the moment.

[circuits 314]

 

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

The new Megane looks a far better car than the ID3 to me. It also has a 5 star NCAP rating. It has a super fast Android Automotive OS, not that laggy UI VW has. 22kW AC charging as standard, heat pump as standard. Range and all that seems comparable to the ID3. The ID3 allows you to mount a bike rack. The Megane allows you to tow a 900kg trailer.

 

Speaking of the ID.3 & Cupra Born:

 

Many German reviews rate the Cupra Born higher than the Megane E Tech, including the NCAP safety & assistance tests. The Megane costs about 5k more than the similarly spec'd 58kWh Born. The heat pump is standard on the Born - but as you mentioned, no it can't tow.

 

As I mentioned before in this thread, Megane's Android Auto is a step up from the Born, as is the interior and the physical controls on the dash.

 

However VW's Travel Assist is way more adept and the Born has also the option to park itself automatically.

 

The clincher for me is the Born's far better performance and handling, especially with the DCC option. And the cheaper price.

 

Also, the Cupra Urban Rebel (and its sister the ID.2) in the Polo-class are going to try to hit the 25k segment before VW eventually rolls out the cheapest ID.1:

 

 

[yesterday 2,039]

On 07/03/2023, 10:30:19, murphaph said:

You really has no idea what's behind the socket unless you can see all of the cable run back to the distribution board and can see all of the feed to the distribution board from the HAK

 

Sure, but you had a house built and were able to specify the cable thickness, most people do not do that, they just move into a a flat or house, and probably will not be able to find the house wiring details. 

 

A professional electrician, cannot tell you the if its a 1.5 or 2.5 mm cable from the outside of the socket, if you want to know this you basically have to remove the cable back to the circuit breaker and check its width.

 

A professional electrician, can really only check for earth leakages faults and install the wallbox without a socket. Everything after that you are hoping everything was done correctly. I live in an older flat, I doubt the wiring has been replaced in 50 years, so if I am using high current devices like my wash dryer, I always do it while I am there, so it something goes wrong, maybe I can do something about.

 

I would be quite scared to charge an EV with this wiring unless it was less than 10 amps, but then I would not get much charge for overnight. The only way to be safe, is to get the apartment re-wired, but then thats just another hidden cost of owning an EV.

 

Quote

 

 

You also have to always remember (if your car allows it) to manually reduce the current. There have been fires where Teslas automatically reduced their draw to a "safe" 13A but that was still too much (constant) current draw and the wiring caught fire anyway. It is highly error prone. It requires you to always remember to reduce the current draw to a point where the delivered charge is almost useless. 

 

This is the problem, most people will not appreciate the danger off charging an EV, they will treat it like a mobile phone, and thats were the problems can start, if you are living in an older place make sure you limit the charging current, but as already said, most people will not do it, the EV car can limit the charge current.

 

 

[Krieg 15,104]

5 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

I do not see any link between Renault and VW. VW developed the e-golf ( about the same time Renault made the Zoe), and is currently on with the ID3 /4.

 

 

This is one of this times that the words while true do not represent the real story.

 

The e-Golf was technically released on 2012, but it was not really a "real" release, they indeed sold cars to the public, but it was more like a prototype sold to enthusiasts.   Between 2014 and 2016 they start selling it for real, but it was still a very limited production, the battery was tiny and the range very low.    Then in 2017 they upgraded it and sold some more, still very limited production, the battery was a big bigger.  Then they stopped it when they moved to the ID3.

 

The Renault Zoe was released on 2012 with a proper release and plenty were sold.   The Zoe, like the Leaf, were proper projects to make an EV, the e-Golf was an after-thought just trying not the left behind, just in case they were wrong, because VW was not an EV believer at that time.

 

P.S., People often confuse the e-Golf with the Golf GTE (the latter is a plug in hybrid).

 

 

 

[keith2011 2,703]

6 minutes ago, yesterday said:

I would be quite scared to charge an EV with this wiring unless it was less than 10 amps, but then I would not get much charge for overnight. The only way to be safe, is to get the apartment re-wired, but then thats just another hidden cost of owning an EV.

 

Are you thinking of parking an EV overnight in your apartment?

[yesterday 2,039]

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

 

I believe that public AC chargers should allow you to access electricity at whatever rate you pay at home. You should be able to "roam" with your car, possibly even across EU borders. I mean, Telecoms companies have different cost bases in different EU countries but roaming is still compulsory.

 

 

Cannot see this happening, if shell or BP or who ever installs a charger they will want you to pay the price they ask, unless Germany/EU is going to install on mass public charger stations, which I do not think will happen. They will leave this part of the market to the free market, like its is currently done with Petrol.

 

 

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

6 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

 

6 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Are you think of parking an EV overnight in your apartment?

 

I could technically do it !!

 

my next door neighbours got a BMW I3, parked in the tief garage below. They ran an extension cable from the apartment window, in to a window in the tief garage and connected it to the BMW I3. It was only there for 6 months then is just dis appeared.

 

I could technically do the same, I guess it would not be allowed though 

 

 

 

[keith2011 2,703]

23 minutes ago, yesterday said:

I could technically do the same, I guess it would not be allowed though 

Indeed not a great idea even assuming the socket and wiring behind it was up to spec. You do not need to rewire your apartment though, you would need to seek professional advice on safe approved  way to get a power outlet or EV charging box to a parking place in the tief garage. This has already been discussed in various posts earlier in this thread.

[JG52 1,044]

17 minutes ago, yesterday said:

A professional electrician, cannot tell you the if its a 1.5 or 2.5 mm cable from the outside of the socket, if you want to know this you basically have to remove the cable back to the circuit breaker and check its width.

 

An easier and much less invasive way to verify the size of the conductors is to remove one of the outlets and check the diameter of one conductor.  Then do the same check on the other end of the cable in the power distribution panel.  If you're lucky, you might be able to see the information on the outer insulation jacket.

 

This won't rule out any dodgy installations with splices of different sized cables in the walls.

[yesterday 2,039]

 

 

9 minutes ago, JG52 said:

 

 

This won't rule out any dodgy installations with splices of different sized cables in the walls.

 

Thats exactly what Murph was talking about, which is why I used it in my post

 

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

This is one of this times that the words while true do not represent the real story.

 

 

 

yes I agree but to be fair no major car company, was really interesting in EV back then, here what I think happend

 

For years Governments had been asked for cleaner cars to come out.

The car companies initially did nothing because they were making enough money making ICE cars, and change is hard.

The Governments kept asking for cleaner cars, at various dinner dates the execs would attend.

Eventually the car companies said ok we will make one, but did not have much interest as they were making enough money on ICE cars.

 

So, the car industry produced some pretty shitty EV's and said look we have done what you asked, we are the good clean people, yes sure many more Zoe's were built than e-golf, but still never enough to make any difference, or persuade the Governments that something can be done.

 

The cars were so bad, nobody but the Tree hungers wanted them or the plain stupid people.   

 

Then came Diesel gate, VW was forced to change a bit, but did not really change much at the time.

 

Just before the Model 3 came, the ICE car manufactures, realised if they did not really compete on EV's they could be out of business, and some really started to work on EV's.

 

The model 3 arrived, its shown it can do most  things an ICE car can, now we start to move away from ICE, thank god. 

 

54 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Indeed not a great idea even assuming the socket and wiring behind it was up to spec. You do not need to rewire your apartment though, you would need to seek professional advice on safe approved  way to get a power outlet or EV charging box to a parking place in the tief garage. This has already been discussed in various posts earlier in this thread.

 

yes, I know the correct way, as I said its just another hidden cost of owning an EV.

 

[Keleth 9,346]

5 hours ago, Krieg said:

The Cybertruck does not exist (yet).

This is apparently being made with 3mm stainless steel.

No surprise it´s such an ugly fucking thing.

 

[Keleth 9,346]

2 hours ago, yesterday said:

Then came Diesel gate, VW was forced to change a bit, but did not really change much at the time.

The Taycan design stage started well before that so at least 1 part of VW was ahead of the curve.

Also don´t forget you don´t design a completely new style of car and produce it in a couple of years.

[MikeMelga 7,345]

8 hours ago, Krieg said:

Suggesting a Cybertruck, Rivian or F150 as a replacement for a Suzuki Jimny is one of the most hilarious nonsense you have written here.   It is like suggesting a Hummer to replace a Mini.

Suggesting the Jimmy is an offroad... quite a nonsense too...

 

8 hours ago, Krieg said:

Maybe hydrogen would be a better solution for the heavy machinery.  Some need huge amounts of energy and the low energy density from batteries probably won't cut it.   

No, for many reasons. Hazard, boil off, high inclinations (if it's fuel cell, they can't be tilted), etc.

I've read a few months ago that current battery energy density is enough for an 8h shift, for most machines. Also many of them are already partially electric, and the diesel is just used as generator.

[MikeMelga 7,345]

9 hours ago, murphaph said:

The new Megane looks a far better car than the ID3 to me. It also has a 5 star NCAP rating. It has a super fast Android Automotive OS, not that laggy UI VW has. 22kW AC charging as standard, heat pump as standard. Range and all that seems comparable to the ID3. The ID3 allows you to mount a bike rack. The Megane allows you to tow a 900kg trailer.

Renault is known for severe electric system problems. Buying an electric Renault is asking for trouble.

My wife's Laguna (bought before we got married) was a complete disaster. 

[keith2011 2,703]

37 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Renault is known for severe electric system problems. Buying an electric Renault is asking for trouble.

My wife's Laguna (bought before we got married) was a complete disaster. 

 

I have to agree, based on quite a long experience of the terrible electrics on Renault ICE's, my mother was a Renault fan, (matched perhaps only by Lucas,bringer of darkness, British motorcycle electrics) it would be the last manufacturer I would consider buying an EV from.

[Krieg 15,104]

2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Suggesting the Jimmy is an offroad... quite a nonsense too...

 

The Suzuki Jimny is actually a very capable off road car, we always had one around back home in the 80s and 90s.  Amazing car, super light and easy to repair.  They gave hard time to much bigger cars in off road competitions as well.  I do not know much about the current iteration, the "Mini G" super cute one they make nowadays but I assume it is the same car and the changes are just the exteriors.

 

The small off road (Suzuki Jimny, Suzuki Vitara, Willys MB, Jeep Renegade, Mitsubishi Montero, etc) were and are super important in the countryside and farms in South America, I am sure they have a big market in other places.   Same with the "Small Pickup", like the Toyota Hilux, OG Ford F150, Ford Ranger, Chevrolet Baja, and so on, but unfortunately these almost disappeared and nowadays you can find mostly giant monster pickup trucks.

 

[tor 17,529]

[Rushrush 303]

Never quite saw EVs in this light before

 

 

I don't know a lot of things, but I do know electronics supply chains. Viewing EVs as a car is why people are getting this shift wrong. Once electronics enter into a product, that product is better thought of as electronics.

 

and

 

 

Remember the explosion of different laptops and then mobile phone brands. Same model here. Non electronics people are going to be continually "surprised" by the pace
 

and finally

 

 

Quite an EV that starts at about $36,000 with up to 436 miles range. Germany? USA? Japan? South Korea? China is now an auto powerhouse too. XPeng P7i Arrives — Stunning Electric Car For Low Price -

 

starts here

 

 

 

 

[Dembo 525]

26 minutes ago, Rushrush said:

I don't know a lot of things, but I do know electronics supply chains. Viewing EVs as a car is why people are getting this shift wrong. Once electronics enter into a product, that product is better thought of as electronics.

 

Are you quoting your own twitter post? I wasn't quite sure.

 

On that basis cars have been electronics for a long time. In fact what we've been told is the electronics in EVs are actually must simpler than for ICEs, pardoxical though that sounds.