Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

[fraufruit 42,697]

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...That's why – already several months before the very first LEAF came to market in December 2010 – Nissan partnered with Sumitomo Corp. to set up 4R Energy Corp. Its purpose: develop the technology and infrastructure to refabricate, recycle, resell and reuse the batteries in Nissan EVs – not for their scrap value, but to power other things.

 

here

 

Another one -

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As a part of its production line, AGV’s inside of Nissan factories are tasked with delivering components and mail to human workers on the factory floor operating through magnetic tracks. The AGV’s are already battery-powered but continue to use lead-acid batteries that only last a couple of years and are not environmentally safe. Nissan currently has more than 4,000 AGV’s around the world in various manufacturing facilities. Indispensable due to the increase in productivity and amount of time it says for workers on the assembly line, Nissan engineers developed a process to take three battery modules from the old Leafs and modified them to fit in an AGV. One Leaf battery pack has 48 modules, enough to power 16 AGV’s with a 30-second automatic quick charge, and are expected to last eight years.

 

[Krieg 15,112]

2 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

here

 

That would be the opposite.   When the battery of an EV is at the end of its life as an EV battery they can still keep a considerable amount of charge, so it makes sense to reuse them for jobs that won't require mobility.   So using an old EV battery as your poor man "Tesla Wall" is a very good idea.

 

This is happening a lot already, and there are even plenty of scams involved.  In China there are plenty of companies repacking old recycled  batteries as new and scamming people.   For example they take a battery pack (four cells) that used to hold 200ah and have now a deep degradation of 60%, so they hold only 120ah, they repack them and sell it as a no-name 100ah battery.  If the customer runs any tests they will be happy because it holds more than the promised capacity.  The problem is at this state it will degrade faster than a new battery, so instead of the expected 3000-4000 cycles it will last 500-1000 cycles only before it can't keep the capacity needed for the job it was bought.

 

The problem I was talking about is the opposite.  How to replace the batteries of those old EVs for a reasonable price.  As far as I know there is no solution and the only thing you can do is to sell it for peanuts or to trash the car, which is a shame.

 

[fraufruit 42,697]

1 minute ago, Krieg said:

The problem I was talking about is the opposite.  How to replace the batteries of those old EVs for a reasonable price.  As far as I know there is no solution and the only thing you can do is to sell it for peanuts or to trash the car, which is a shame.

 

 

Agree.

[murphaph 9,865]

Hopefully the EU mandates a standard battery design (at least the physical characteristics) or set of designs like the standard charger at some stage. Yes it might limit manufacturers somewhat in their creativity but a price worth paying I reckon. It should be possible to do so in a market as large as the EU. 

[Eric7 555]

9 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Hopefully the EU mandates a standard battery design (at least the physical characteristics) or set of designs like the standard charger at some stage. Yes it might limit manufacturers somewhat in their creativity but a price worth paying I reckon. It should be possible to do so in a market as large as the EU. 

 

This will hopefully happen eventually but battery technology is still in it's (relative) infancy right now and who's to say what the right way to go is.
Nio has the right idea with it's battery swap tech.
 

[Krieg 15,112]

18 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Hopefully the EU mandates a standard battery design (at least the physical characteristics) or set of designs like the standard charger at some stage. Yes it might limit manufacturers somewhat in their creativity but a price worth paying I reckon. It should be possible to do so in a market as large as the EU. 

 

I wouldn't count of that soon.   The only positive thing they have done about this was the USB-C mandate for smartphones.  But otherwise DC is a massive chaos and it is a waste of energy when talking about appliances.   There are no standards for charging,  batteries run on 5v, 12v, 18v, 24v, 36v, 48v and 72v.  And every device has its own charger, and every charger runs from AC.

 

In my case I have a few solar panels as a hobby.   Except on winter, I run from solar most phones, tablets, laptops, battery powered lawn mower, power tools, eBike, eScooter, and other devices I might forgot at the moment.  If there is balance I run our TV in the night from it too.   The problem is my solar panels put the electricity into Lifepo3 batteries, then if I want to charge my eBike I have to run an inverter (there goes 15% of my electricity) and then the charger has to convert it back to DC (there is some lost as well, no idea how much).  So for everything I want to charge I have to take from DC, convert it at great lost to AC just to convert it back to DC, ridiculous. 

 

DC-DC chargers should become more mainstream.  And some standards should be implemented that you do not need a charger for every device you own.   Plugs from chargers should be standard.

[catjones 1,719]

Disclaimer: Just to keep things simple, I'll use numbers that may not be accurate.

 

For a long haul drive (let's say 800km) if I have an ICE with a range of 400km, it doesn't really matter whether I stop and fill the tank every 100km (8 times with just a few liters)  or just twice at 400km.  I know there's a difference, but it's just a few minutes.

Using the same analogy, with an EV does it matter if you make more quick recharges or fewer full charges?

[Dembo 525]

2 hours ago, Krieg said:

The problem I was talking about is the opposite.  How to replace the batteries of those old EVs for a reasonable price.  As far as I know there is no solution and the only thing you can do is to sell it for peanuts or to trash the car, which is a shame.

 

 

There was a video from Robert Llewyeln featuring someone replacing Leaf batteries with those from newer Leafs that had ended up in breakers yards (i.e. had been crashed) for comparitively not very much and as a result ending up with better range than when the car was new. Obviously that only works to a limited extent, but this isn't dissimilar to the situation with petrol or diesel cars. Most engines will outlast the car, but if you have an engine failure on an older car out of warranty only an idiot would buy a brand new replacement. You'd buy a used one from a breaker.  

[MikeMelga 7,346]

@Krieg, agree, the Zoe and Leaf suffer from terrible battery management system, both in terms of longevity and in terms of practical use. It's time to kill the venerable Zoe and Leaf.

[MikeMelga 7,346]

26 minutes ago, catjones said:

For a long haul drive (let's say 800km) if I have an ICE with a range of 400km, it doesn't really matter whether I stop and fill the tank every 100km (8 times with just a few liters)  or just twice at 400km.  I know there's a difference, but it's just a few minutes.

Using the same analogy, with an EV does it matter if you make more quick recharges or fewer full charges?

Let's say 800km on Autobahn at 130km/h speed. Let's assume an ICE stops for 10 minutes for each refill. Assuming you start with a full tank, you will need to stop 2x, because you can't arrive at refills with zero litters. That's 20min in stoppage. But let's assume the first is during a 30 minute lunch, so only one counts (10 minutes).

Now with an EV. You start with a full battery. Let's assume 400km range @130km/h. And the first stop is including lunch. Let's also assume you arrive with 20% battery at the first stop (400*0.8 = 320km). In 30 minutes, you go from 20 to around 90%. Next stop is at 600lm, arriving again with 20% margin (i'm conservative). Then you need to charge up to 70% to reach your destination with 20% margin. That takes around 15 minutes.

So it's 10 minutes for the ICE and 15 minutes for the EV.

 

A more general answer: each car will have an optimal speed for consumption and an optimal speed for time. Bjorn Nyland made a test a few years ago and found that the optimal speed for time was around 190km/h for a Tesla Model 3. Yes, you stop more often, but you compensate with the speed.

In practice, I use this a lot. If I have time, I will cruise at 130km/h. If I'm in a hurry, even considering charging stops, I go above 170km/h.

[Krieg 15,112]

2 hours ago, Dembo said:

 

There was a video from Robert Llewyeln featuring someone replacing Leaf batteries with those from newer Leafs that had ended up in breakers yards (i.e. had been crashed) for comparitively not very much and as a result ending up with better range than when the car was new. Obviously that only works to a limited extent, but this isn't dissimilar to the situation with petrol or diesel cars. Most engines will outlast the car, but if you have an engine failure on an older car out of warranty only an idiot would buy a brand new replacement. You'd buy a used one from a breaker.  

 

That would be the scenario in Western Europe and maybe a few other first world countries, but in plenty of places, specially in third world countries, engines and gearboxes are rebuilt and cars last really long.   Those Arab guys that buy any broken car send them to some places where they can be repaired for reasonable prices and the car can continue working for many more years.   And engine can be fully rebuilt two or three times.  It is normally the other way around, it is the rest of the car is the one that gets too bad that it makes no sense to continue fixing it.

 

[fraufruit 42,697]

2 hours ago, catjones said:

Disclaimer: Just to keep things simple, I'll use numbers that may not be accurate.

 

For a long haul drive (let's say 800km) if I have an ICE with a range of 400km, it doesn't really matter whether I stop and fill the tank every 100km (8 times with just a few liters)  or just twice at 400km.  I know there's a difference, but it's just a few minutes.

Using the same analogy, with an EV does it matter if you make more quick recharges or fewer full charges?

 

Stopping twice in 800 kilometers would not be possible for us. We couldn't stand up or walk upon reaching our destination.

 

Our full charges - to 80% - only take 20 minutes so I can't see stopping more often than that.

 

Having said that, we have yet to travel where fast chargers are few and far between.

[Krieg 15,112]

2 hours ago, catjones said:

Disclaimer: Just to keep things simple, I'll use numbers that may not be accurate.

 

For a long haul drive (let's say 800km) if I have an ICE with a range of 400km, it doesn't really matter whether I stop and fill the tank every 100km (8 times with just a few liters)  or just twice at 400km.  I know there's a difference, but it's just a few minutes.

Using the same analogy, with an EV does it matter if you make more quick recharges or fewer full charges?

 

Lithium batteries charge first very fast and then slow, so it might faster to stop more times and charge the car to certain point and continuing instead of waiting for full charge.

 

And while not related to your scenario, you have to consider as well that the faster you charge the higher the degradation.  If you go long trips once in a while it won't probably matter. 

[fraufruit 42,697]

We only go on long trips a few time per year. By long trips, I mean 500 - 600 km. each way. Nothing more than that.

 

The bottom line is don't buy an EV if you can't afford one and/or think that they will be much more expensive to operate or too much hassle to charge.

 

Simplz.

 

 

[catjones 1,719]

@MikeMelga @Krieg

 

Thanks for the reply.  I did a poor job of asking my question, but Krieg came close to the answer.

 

To put is another way, in an ICE the petro pump pumps at the same rate whether your tank is 1/2 full or a 1/4 full...it doesn't matter.

 

Does an EV charge at the same rate whether you need 25% more to top off, or 50% or 75%?

 

From what you've both said, it sounds like there is some difference in total time if you have a series of short recharges vs one major recharge, but that the difference is insignificant.

 

 

[Krieg 15,112]

The charging of the battery is not linear.  They charge fast until around 50%, then slow down a bit until around 70%, then continue slowing down.  From around 90% is very slow.  

 

You can see this effect in a good quality smartphone.  In a crappy one it will continue charging "fast" all the time and the battery will become very hot, which is very bad for its life.

[MikeMelga 7,346]

3 hours ago, Krieg said:

And while not related to your scenario, you have to consider as well that the faster you charge the higher the degradation.  If you go long trips once in a while it won't probably matter. 

This has been discussed ad nausea in Tesla forums. There is no significant degradation by constant fast charging, at least with Tesla. There are guys doing fast charging 75% of the time and with no significant degradation.

It's more important the following rules:

• Don't let the car sit with less than 20% in the cold
• Try to keep your battery between 50-90% for most of the idle time
• Don't let the car sit with more than 100% of battery

[MikeMelga 7,346]

3 hours ago, catjones said:

@MikeMelga @Krieg

 

Does an EV charge at the same rate whether you need 25% more to top off, or 50% or 75%?

Each car has a charging curve. Here is mine below. 

Ideally you arrive at a charger with between 10-20%.

Then you leave at 70% or so. Above 90% only if you are having lunch or visiting something.

 

Last summer I did a long trip in Portugal with the Ioniq. Not many fast chargers in some parts of the highway. We were 5 guys waiting for a stupid lady to vacate a charger, but she insisted she had to go up to 100%, and she had been there for 2h!

 

 

 

 

[catjones 1,719]

3 hours ago, Krieg said:

The charging of the battery is not linear.  They charge fast until around 50%, then slow down a bit until around 70%, then continue slowing down.  From around 90% is very slow.  

 

I will be driving from Phoenix, Arizona to Chicago, Illinois....~1700 miles, 2700km, 3 days.  It sounds like when I get to 25% I should charge to 70% and when I stop for lunch, just eat while charging regardless of starting % and then use hotel charger until maxed at night.

[DanglingPointer 29]

I have a question regarding electricity tariff. Till now I used to charge my model-3 using SWM charger near my house as I don't have a home charger in my garage.

By end of the year we will be moving to our new house where we will have a socket in underground car park to charge the car. May be we will install a TSLA wall box over there.

I have a 6 year old electricity plan with EON in my current apartment. It a normal plan like any other. I am not sure if I can take EON to new place or have to buy a new plan.

 

Do we get some separate Tarrif for car charging which is cheaper at night? Is it expensive to start a tariff with new provider? Shall I check with EON first if they offer something in new location? What would be my best option here?

At SWM I think I used to pay 49 cents per kwh for slow charging. What would be the cheapest option to charge a car at home during off peak hours?