Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

[MikeMelga 7,346]

14 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Thanks Mike that is the type info I was looking for. Is the cost higher here in Germany?

Yes. Right now 100km would cost around 8-10€ in the supercharger network, but prices keep changing depending on electricity cost. 2 years ago it costed 6€. And 3 years ago less than 5€. I think by the summer it should come back to 7-8€ per 100km.

[Dembo 525]

3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

It is much cheaper than petrol or diesel. You don't charge everyday on those expensive chargers, some companies offer free charging, and some EVs, like Tesla, have much better efficiency. My all time average on the Tesla is 18.2kWh /100km, and I drive usually above 150-170km/h on the Autobahn. 

My Tesla phone app makes the math for all charging costs (home, work, supercharger, others) and compares with monthly petrol costs. I'm saving around 200€ per month now, as I can charge for free on my wife's company.

Here is a description: https://electrek.co/2022/02/01/tesla-charge-stats-feature-owners-more-access-info-savings/

 

 

But the point was what if you can't charge for free on your wife's company, can't charge at home for 6ct/KWh and don't get free charging. The Stuttgart-Stadtwerk/enBW charges are the non-expensive slow charges that you find on the street and if the price is now ~75ct/KWh then it's going to work out pretty similar to petrol or diesel. 

[Krieg 15,112]

2 hours ago, optimista said:

I did the maths and came to ca. 4 euros / 100km.

 

 

Where can you buy 22kwh for 4€ on a public charger?  Even at home I would pay close to 7€ and I have a good old contract, some people would pay 11€.

 

In the meantime modern ICEs do 100 km with 4 or 5 liters of benzine.  Some hybrids with less than 3 liters.

[yesterday 2,044]

25 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Yes. Right now 100km would cost around 8-10€ in the supercharger network, but prices keep changing depending on electricity cost. 2 years ago it costed 6€. And 3 years ago less than 5€. I think by the summer it should come back to 7-8€ per 100km.

My diesel will do 4 litres per 100km ie 7.50 per 100km

 

I can drive over 600 km until I need to tank, diesel prices are going up and down all the time, just like electricity prices

Some Ice cars can go 1000km before needing to tank

 

 

Ev charging and diesel tanking are the same cost, if you have an efficient diesel

 

[fraufruit 42,697]

25 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

On a Tesla, you have the best charging network. You can now also use it with non-Tesla, which I highly recommend.

 

Not all Tesla chargers accept non-Teslas at this point. Look at your Tesla app and put in non-Tesla and see what you get. Himself checked for our upcoming trip.

[murphaph 9,865]

For EVs to really take off we need much more smart metering in place. All the wind energy that is wasted at night should be being dumped into EV batteries for use next day. That wind energy could be free or near free. Indeed in the UK there are tariffs that provide free electricity on weekends and stuff like that but you need a smart meter for all these time dependent tariffs.

 

I have to say I am almost looking forward to our car going life expired. I will move to an EV then and (as a DIY mechanic) will have less to do. No timing belt changes. No valve clearance adjustments, no clutch replacements, no waterpumps to fail, no oil changes, no oil and air filters, no coolant leaks, no coolant to flush and replace every few years, no head gaskets (or rocker cover or sump gaskets or various oils seals) to fail, no gear oil to periodically replace. I have been looking into "what can I repair on an EV as a DIY mechanic" lately and the answer is almost everything that is actually likely to fail!

 

On an EV the stuff that goes are the moving parts, just like an ICE vehicle. This is the same for an EV (the electrics are the most reliable parts, same as in any modern ICE really). So, the battery pack and electric motors are unlikely to cause any problems. The stuff that will need replacing however is far reduced on an EV as they have a fraction of the number of moving parts compared to an ICE vehicle. The stuff that will go will be things like wheel bearings, brake pads, shock absorbers etc. All the same as with ICE vehicles but without the worst parts, the engine, clutch and gearbox. Owning an EV as a DIY mechanic should make for an easier life. I guess we will see when the time comes. I had discounted EVs until recently as none allowed towing a 1 tonne trailer, which is a precondition for me, but as time goes on several manufacturers are now allowing this so it's no longer an obstacle.

[Krieg 15,112]

2 hours ago, optimista said:

 

 

@murphaph 

 

There are some problems with moving electricity to batteries for later use.  First every time you move electricity like that there is a lost.   And second using batteries is not for free and it is not actually cheap.  The battery has a life and a limited amount of KWh they can store.  Depending on technology and quality this can be anything from a couple of cents per kWh to 10 or 12 cents.  Then there is extra waste if you want to use it as AC instead of DC.

[keith2011 2,707]

Hmm, lots of disagreement regarding price here.

According the the ADAC prices for charging vary between €0.51-0.79 per kwh (as of 17th Jan. this year) which supports the claim that  EV running costs without home or free charging are higher than benzine, not to mention diesel which should have been banned years ago!

Looks like the E-bikes and public transport will be the best option.

[keith2011 2,707]

10 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The stuff that will go will be things like wheel bearings, brake pads, shock absorbers etc.

 

Maybe a lot quicker with all the extra weight of the battery pack, tyres too!

[fraufruit 42,697]

Some people by EV's and decide they don't like them. Very easy to re-sell and sometimes for the purchase price or more. They are in such high demand.

 

You can also rent one for a week and try it out but I don't think that's enough time to get acquainted and comfortable with it.

[murphaph 9,865]

11 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

 

@murphaph 

 

There are some problems with moving electricity to batteries for later use.  First every time you move electricity like that there is a lost.   And second using batteries is not for free and it is not actually cheap.  The battery has a life and a limited amount of KWh they can store.  Depending on technology and quality this can be anything from a couple of cents per kWh to 10 or 12 cents.  Then there is extra waste if you want to use it as AC instead of DC.

Yep absolutely, I appreciate there's a cost per cycle. It's one of the reasons I think people will be more careful in future about what size battery to order with their EV. Taking the biggest and most expensive one (and thus the most depreciation per cycle) is not going to be the automatic choice in future I suspect. Manufacturers will probably allow the owner to specify how large a battery they want to install. 

 

The equation is also significantly different for people with photovoltaic as the feed in tariff is only like 7c these days. So if you can dump that into your EV instead it's clearly a lot cheaper than buying grid electricity to charge up.

 

I am not an EV romantic. I see the downsides but I also see the upsides (as mentioned above, there is just far less to fail in an EV because ICE's and their attached transmissions are full of bits that move). I consider myself a fairly competent DIY mechanic but I still don't relish turning the key for the first time after I have done a timing belt. None of that stuff to worry about on an EV.

[murphaph 9,865]

18 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Maybe a lot quicker with all the extra weight of the battery pack, tyres too!

Nah, bearings are just taken from the equivalent 3 tonne Audi SUV. The bearings in a small hatchback can easily fail several times in the car's lifetime. 

[yesterday 2,044]

44 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 not to mention diesel which should have been banned years ago!

Humm, when I got my diesel it was sold as the future of clean driving, which was a reason to buy one

 

Now diesel is the fuel of the devil

 

Now  things change who is going to compensate me for beleaving the lies? 

 

I would like to know how many diesel cars are on the road, I would imagine not many, so why do we not ban old timers aswell, as they pollute as well

 

 

Where will the witch hunt end? 

Quote

 

44 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

[JG52 1,044]

44 minutes ago, murphaph said:

 I had discounted EVs until recently as none allowed towing a 1 tonne trailer, which is a precondition for me, but as time goes on several manufacturers are now allowing this so it's no longer an obstacle.

 

I am also waiting for the evolution of EVs to expand into pickup trucks with useful bed and towing capacity.  Until then, my diesel Ford Ranger (not the four-door version) will remain in nearly daily use.  I had an older gas Ford Ranger before I retired, but replaced it with the diesel version as my retirement present. 

 

Any replacement truck must fit in my garage with my wife's car and be locally supported.  I considered buying a Ford F150 through Military Sales, but the only models available in Germany were the four-door long bed models and the salesman could not guarantee delivery of an extended cab short bed model in time.  It became moot because the F-150, or the Dodge Ram, will not fit in my garage.  They are longer, taller, and wider than the Ranger, and the new Ranger just fits.  That abomination from Tesla will not fit.

 

I use my truck as it was intended, and not as a novelty.  I was tempted to buy a standard cab, in order to have the longest bed possible, but decided to buy the extended cab so I could have some secure storage space behind the seats.  To me, the four-door version is nothing more than a car with an open trunk and is practically useless to me.  At least twice a year I haul one cubic meter of mulch for my garden, which fits nicely in the bed, as well as haul away the trimmings from the routine cleanups.  It's not a large garden, but I like it to look nice and I enjoy working in it.  The operators at the local Kompostierung know my truck.

 

Depending on my home projects, I might have five or six full sheets of 18mm or 19mm plywood, a few sheets of 15mm or 18mm MDF, or a few full three-meter slabs of walnut, oak, or cherry.  I don't have room to park a vehicle and a trailer, so the truck must do it all and still be comfortable to drive.

 

For what it's worth, there were no visible EVs in my immediate neighborhood of 33 houses a year ago.  Now, there are at least 12 EVs and three hybrids, and none are Teslas.  Most of the houses have garages, but only a few actually use them for vehicles, so it is easy to see who has what on the frequent walks through the neighborhood.

[murphaph 9,865]

Personally I would love to be able to justify a pickup. I just like them. But alas we have ample space to park the trailer when not in use I can't really justify such a specialist vehicle so we will buy an EV with decent towing capacity to replace our current runabout, when the time comes. I cannot bring myself to scrap a car that I can repair cheaply (current wheel bearing is costing me a whopping €15 to replace) and as long as it keeps passing the TÜV I am loathed to part with it as it works out at incredibly cheap motoring. If it starts failing for emissions and needs a new cat or something then the question of replacement will come up in anger, but EVs have definitely moved on enough in the past 2 years for us to make our next car electric I suspect.

[keith2011 2,707]

24 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Now diesel is the fuel of the devil

 

Now  things change who is going to compensate me for beleaving the lies? 

 

I understood that VW and others were required, following a court case here in Germany, to compensate owners for misleading them!

 

8 minutes ago, JG52 said:

 

I am also waiting for the evolution of EVs to expand into pickup trucks with useful bed and towing capacity.

 

I an curious to understand the attraction of a pickup truck in a country like Germany and indeed most of northern Europe, with a climate where it rains so often,  surely the popular van/transporters are the more practical option?

[yesterday 2,044]

OK, but with the high demand for EVs, you can wait a long time before you get it from ordering

 

So waiting for you cat to fail and then ordering could leave u without the car for a long time

[murphaph 9,865]

3 minutes ago, yesterday said:

OK, but with the high demand for EVs, you can wait a long time before you get it from ordering

 

So waiting for you cat to fail and then ordering could leave u without the car for a long time

I won't be buying a new vehicle. That's a mug's game. The thing loses like 25% of its value the moment it's registered in your name. I always buy used, let the first owner take the biggest hit on the depreciation :-)

 

Edit: Which brings me on to another point in favour of EVs. The style of driving of the previous owner is far less relevant when buying a used EV IMO. There is no clutch to ride, no cold starts, no stop start driving to worry about. The difference in condition when buying a used a "motorway miles" ICE vehicle compared with one that has been used exclusively in city traffic is immense. ICEs do not like being started and stopped all the time. The oil returns to the sump and the engine cold starts with effectively no lubrication for a few moments until oil is pumped into the galleries to actually start lubricating. An EV has no engine oil as it has no engine. Same with towing...a car that has been used extensively to tow a trailer will have placed far more stress on the clutch and gearbox but you won't know that when buying it. An EV does not care about these things. The range is just reduced when towing a trailer but the motors aren't bothered by the extra load in real terms. The battery condition is the most important thing and the vehicle will usually report this.

 

 

[yesterday 2,044]

2 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

I understood that VW and others were required, following a court case here in Germany, to compensate owners for misleading them!

 

 

 

But not for my Toyota, nothing was every proven against them

 

 

But my Toyota diesel is still on the banned    list

 

Where is the fairness in that? 

[keith2011 2,707]

5 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I won't be buying a new vehicle. That's a mug's game. The thing loses like 25% of its value the moment it's registered in your name. I always buy used, let the first owner take the biggest hit on the depreciation :-)

Agree with you on that but at present it seems EVs increase in value 2nd hand, or so their supporters here claim . Also how does it work for the subsidy?