Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

667 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, fraufruit said:

We've had none of those problems with our Ionic 5. Not sure about turning it off to charge but that is just a push of the button. We get all updates over the air - no need to go to service store.

Some can't be done OTA, so you definitely still need to go to the store.

 

4 hours ago, fraufruit said:

I think your FIL's car is buggy and he should have it checked out. You said he doesn't have Blue Link. That is already a problem.

Now Bluelink is working. But their lane keeper/autosteer is just not reliable, at least from what I would expect.

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Looks like another hit piece from the Telegraph.

 

Quote

The petrol version can travel around 400 miles on a full tank of petrol, which would cost around £50. The electric model only has a range of 290 miles and would need multiple charges to travel 400 miles – this would cost £99 more after October’s electricity price hike.

 

That's some pretty shitty math right there.

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25 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Looks like another hit piece from the Telegraph.

 

That's some pretty shitty math right there.

Yep. Scared of losing traditional auto advertisement.

 

In other news, Tesla launched a RWD Model Y in Europe. The price in germany is not worth it compared with AWD, but elsewhere in Europe that new model is up to 16.000€ cheaper!

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4 hours ago, fraufruit said:

The petrol version can travel around 400 miles on a full tank of petrol, which would cost around £50.

 

Not sure what vehicle they were talking about but assuming 30 miles per UK gallon you would need around 60 litres (13.5 gallons) at at currently 1.65 GBP per litre which is at least 99 quid, not 50, so yes some very shitty maths there!

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8 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Looks like another hit piece from the Telegraph.

 

 

That's some pretty shitty math right there.


the whole article is intellectually lazy reporting of a real issue. The electricity prices have already risen significantly and are still rising in the primary energy market; the increases are now reaching the consumers. Driving an electric car is getting more expensive; this is true regardless of comparisons with gasoline prices (which everybody will make anyway).
 

2023 is shaping up to be a very interesting year, Chinese definition 😒 and this winter will be a crucible one in Europe. My goal for some months now has been to drive as few km as possible and reduce our gas consumption drastically.

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The thing is, they can't hike the EV charging prices at will. If they do, there are always the following alternatives:

  • home charging
  • company charging
  • solar charging

I agree that for long trips they can hike the prices, but for everyday commute, which is most of the kms per year, we will always have alternatives.

BTW, my FIL Ioniq with solar panels built-in the car self-charges enough for his short commute.

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49 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

The thing is, they can't hike the EV charging prices at will. If they do, there are always the following alternatives:

  • home charging
  • company charging
  • solar charging

I agree that for long trips they can hike the prices, but for everyday commute, which is most of the kms per year, we will always have alternatives.

BTW, my FIL Ioniq with solar panels built-in the car self-charges enough for his short commute.


- home charging: you see what is happening to gas prices for private homes, a contract doesn’t protect against major increases even if it’s still ongoing. And after look it ends it’s all bets off.

- Company charging: at least my company just passes the electricity price to the employees. I’d love to have free electricity for the car but that’s not in the cards.

- solar charging: I assume you mean at home (since corporations sell at market price); it only benefits a comparatively small part of the population which is on average better off than the rest anyway (own a house). It really doesn’t help much in winter. I’m looking to get one installed, it’s very difficult at the moment.

 

I’m also of the opinion that electrical cars are here to stay and the future, and that the faster they’re sold the better, but it’s going to be an expensive 2023 for electric car owners too, unless Russia and Ukraine make friends that is, and even that would likely not be enough.

 

people with short commutes are price indifferent. Gasoline could be €10/l and my wife would still only spend around €150/month for her 15 km round trip, even if she never took the bike.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

BTW, my FIL Ioniq with solar panels built-in the car self-charges enough for his short commute.

 

We initially ordered the solar panels on ours but decided against in the end. We park in a Tiefgarage and got our own power installed there. 

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1 hour ago, mtbiking said:

- home charging: you see what is happening to gas prices for private homes, a contract doesn’t protect against major increases even if it’s still ongoing. And after look it ends it’s all bets off.

Worst case you put panels.

 

1 hour ago, mtbiking said:

- Company charging: at least my company just passes the electricity price to the employees. I’d love to have free electricity for the car but that’s not in the cards.

Employees and internal groups, like betriebsrat are pressing management to make it a benefit.

 

1 hour ago, mtbiking said:

- solar charging: I assume you mean at home (since corporations sell at market price); it only benefits a comparatively small part of the population which is on average better off than the rest anyway (own a house). It really doesn’t help much in winter. I’m looking to get one installed, it’s very difficult at the moment.

Not really, apartment buildings can do the same. Eventually, vast majority of cars in those garages will be electric and it will make perfect sense for apartment buildings to invest in solar.

1 hour ago, mtbiking said:

I’m also of the opinion that electrical cars are here to stay and the future, and that the faster they’re sold the better, but it’s going to be an expensive 2023 for electric car owners too, unless Russia and Ukraine make friends that is, and even that would likely not be enough.

Still cheaper than gas, and don't forget savings on maintenance!

 

1 hour ago, mtbiking said:

people with short commutes are price indifferent. Gasoline could be €10/l and my wife would still only spend around €150/month for her 15 km round trip, even if she never took the bike.

150€/month is cheap for you??

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4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

150€/month is cheap for you??

To be honest, it’s OK :ph34r: many people spend more than that on transportation. But that would be with an extreme price of €10/l - we’re not getting anywhere near to that point without major social commotions and supply chain collapses- and no cycling. She’s spending around €20 on fuel/month as it is - sometimes we take her car for longer drives in order to run the motor a bit.
 

Regarding solar, I’m still worried about the winter months in Germany. Portugal is much better suited for solar; in Germany it’s not only the short days, it’s snow covering the panels and a month long of cloudy weather if we’re unlucky - I experience this with our solar water heating system. With any luck I’ll be able to report on my personal experience with photovoltaics next year :P

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1 hour ago, mtbiking said:

Regarding solar, I’m still worried about the winter months in Germany. Portugal is much better suited for solar; in Germany it’s not only the short days, it’s snow covering the panels and a month long of cloudy weather if we’re unlucky - I experience this with our solar water heating system. With any luck I’ll be able to report on my personal experience with photovoltaics next year :P

Remember you should not optimize for worst case. It's ok if it doesn't work well for a few months a year.

 

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9 hours ago, mtbiking said:

in Germany it’s not only the short days, it’s snow covering the panels

I think you can just as well ignore snow. There won't be so many days your PV will be covered with snow. And anyway those days will be very short and cloudy anyway: during last Despite zero snow, last Dec and Jan combined our PV produced 134 kWh, against a yearly total of 7394 kWh.

 

No solution against clouds and short days though. But PV still worthwhile.

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To recap, here are the new Innovationsprämie rules as of 01.01.23:

 

- Vehicles under €40,000 net list price receive €4,500 from the state
- Vehicles from 40,000 € to 65,000 € net list price receive 3,000 € from the state
-  From 1.9.2023 the subsidy will be limited to private individuals

 

In 2024, only EVs <€40k will be eligible, this time for €3,000.

 

During the last quarter delivery times have generally been getting worse for all manufacturers and prices are obviously rising as well.

 

I finally have a fixed production date for my Cupra Born and should receive it at the end of November, so 10 months after ordering! Shipping times were generally only 4-6 months for anyone who unlike me didn't order the driver assistance package which is subject to massive part shortages. Meanwhile there are many ID.3/ID.4 customers who have been waiting 1-1.5 years.

 

And finally, some amusing history - in the early 90's, Motorola secretly made an EV prototype from a 1987 Corvette:

 

https://www.thedrive.com/culture/we-found-motorolas-secret-chevy-corvette-ev-prototype-from-the-1990s

 

:lol:

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On 8/28/2022, 10:45:51, keith2011 said:

I have to question why we should be facing much higher charges for electricity given that only 12% of the total production in Germany comes from natural gas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany


Reason is the "Merit Order" principle.
Merit order - Wikipedia

For a normal people like me, I would say its simply the way any market works. As an example, cost of Oil production for the Saudis is like 10-12 USD, for USA Shell Fracking industry its 50+. But when there is a market for 90 USD, the Saudis wont sell it for 30.

Same with German electricity market. There are times of days/weeks when costly Gas powered electricity comes to market and they must be bought to keep grid stable - so Solar and Wind guys gets 500% profit at those times. Happens too often after we have booted AKW and many Coals. Stupid Energy Wende has made electricity too expensive. It worked somehow as long as gas price was low , not anymore.

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26 minutes ago, Goodbye_BlueSky said:

For a normal people like me, I would say its simply the way any market works. As an example, cost of Oil production for the Saudis is like 10-12 USD, for USA Shell Fracking industry its 50+. But when there is a market for 90 USD, the Saudis wont sell it for 30.

 

That is fair enough given that shipping costs are not too dissimilar  for oil from the USA or Saudi or even Russia for that matter, it is an open market but that may not be the case for electricity and gas. For example why should the price for North-sea gas be tied to the world price given that they have no way to sell it to anywhere but the UK and why is the UK electricity price  fixed to the gas price. As you rightly point out it just increases the actual profits of the supply chain assuming their % margin remains the same but the end user has to pay and inflation starts to run rampant it's madness.

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2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

That is fair enough given that shipping costs are not too dissimilar  for oil from the USA or Saudi or even Russia for that matter, it is an open market but that may not be the case for electricity and gas. For example why should the price for North-sea gas be tied to the world price given that they have no way to sell it to anywhere but the UK and why is the UK electricity price  fixed to the gas price. As you rightly point out it just increases the actual profits of the supply chain assuming their % margin remains the same but the end user has to pay and inflation starts to run rampant it's madness.

 

 

UK oil and gas is sold for export ....

 

Why new North Sea oil and gas production won’t help UK energy security (stopcambo.org.uk)

 

The UK government makes a license to collect oil and GAS, after that its companies like BP, Shell etc etc who decide where its sold and the market determines the price

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