Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

[fraufruit 42,196]

9 minutes ago, yesterday said:

a small city car for the wife

 

Did you really say that?

[yesterday 2,022]

Just now, fraufruit said:

 

Did you really say that?

 

 

yes, I did - and I did think about it for a  good  5 mins as well , before I put it in, which is probably even worse.

 

In my defence, although it does hit the bell of a (nearly) sexist term! It is kind true thou for a lot of people I know. So is it really bad to report things I see rather than follow what I know to be a term I know I should not really use ?

 

Me being from the 60's found it was common use, in my life and the people I know

[circuits 311]

2 hours ago, Dembo said:

 

Fair enough. But like I said this seems like a good solution for reducing emissions 10 years too late. For example, I just looked at the VW website and the basic Golf costs €30K and the basic ID3 €38K. Why the difference? This scheme obviously isn't resulting in VW being forced to charge the same for the same class of car.

 

If you ordered an ID.3 or Cupra Born in the last couple years, it was €38K minus €10K for the Umweltbonus + Innovationsprämie. So €28K.

 

The €3.570 Umweltbonus will continue until 2025 but nobody knows what's going to happen yet next year to the Innovationsprämie as Lindner wants to kill it.

 

Frankly, the Golf's interior is still a step above either but VW are getting massive push-back and have promised better interiors with the upcoming facelifts for both.

[fraufruit 42,196]

5 hours ago, Dembo said:

I just looked at the VW website and the basic Golf costs €30K and the basic ID3 €38K. Why the difference?

 

There's also this thing called supply and demand.

[Dembo 525]

4 hours ago, yesterday said:

People who can afford it, tend to buy 2 cars one main car which can do everything and a small city car for the wife, which an E car can do, this I would expect be the main replacement for the ICE car, but still have a big car for longer trip / holidays etc, which given the current prices would still be an ICE car for a lot of people.

... plus lots of outdated arguments...

 

You should tell this to the car industry. Most the EVs on offer are bloody SUVs. This is not the small city car for the wife/modern husband/partner but is the big main family car that middle class people have to have for everything including longer trip/holidays.

[Krieg 15,038]

1 minute ago, Dembo said:

 

You should tell this to the car industry. Most the EVs on offer are bloody SUVs. This is not the small city car for the wife/modern husband/partner but is the big main family car that middle class people have to have for everything including longer trip/holidays.

 

The problem is it is very difficult to compete in that segment, small ICEs cost 10k - 14k, while a small EV still costs 20k - 25k.     In the mid and big class the difference is not that brutal, maybe 10% - 20%.   And right now when you buy only the Umweltbonus is safe, the Innovationbonus is not really safe because you get it when you register the car, not when you buy it, and officially the program finishes this December.

[Dembo 525]

2 hours ago, circuits said:

 

If you ordered an ID.3 or Cupra Born in the last couple years, it was €38K minus €10K for the Umweltbonus + Innovationsprämie. So €28K.

 

I thought the €3500 or whatever had already been deducted from the advertised price? But maybe not.

 

The point was what would happen without the subsidies. Skook was insisting they're already taxing ICE cars to subsidise EVs, but clearly it isn't going far enough when a Golf is still cheaper than it's EV equivalent.

[fraufruit 42,196]

26 minutes ago, Dembo said:

when a Golf is still cheaper than it's EV equivalent.

 

Did someone mention supply and demand?

[CincyInDE 3,293]

25 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Did someone mention supply and demand?

 

@fraufruit know your limits!

 

 

[Dembo 525]

49 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

The problem is it is very difficult to compete in that segment, small ICEs cost 10k - 14k, while a small EV still costs 20k - 25k.   

 

All the more reason to slap a tax on ICEs.

 

22 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Did someone mention supply and demand?

 

All the more reason to slap a tax on ICEs ;-0

[Keleth 9,315]

6 hours ago, Dembo said:

 

All the more reason to slap a tax on ICEs.

 

 

All the more reason to slap a tax on ICEs ;-0


 

Or you could make EVs affordable for everyone.

[mtbiking 1,894]

12 hours ago, Keleth said:

Or you could make EVs affordable for everyone.

And family homes, and vacationing in the Seychelles, and jacuzzi’s. Life could be so simple and sweet if not for that pesky market economy*
 

* cars are mass consumer goods, though. Under normal conditions the price will go down and the quality will go up, given enough time, much more efficiently than with a government directed approach.

[Keleth 9,315]

3 hours ago, mtbiking said:

And family homes, and vacationing in the Seychelles, and jacuzzi’s. Life could be so simple and sweet if not for that pesky market economy*

I don´t know if you misunderstood me or whether you´re just being a smartarse.

If I can afford say 18k for a new Ford Fiesta then make that Fiesta an EV,don´t put more tax on the 18k ICE so that an EV is almost the same price.

We always hear MM going on about how much mega profit Tesla makes so there is no excuse other than profits for them to charge as much as they do for their cars.

Yes, I know VW etc have to retool etc to make EVs but they´re still making a nice chunk of change on the ones they turn out.Maybe put some of the tax money they´re getting from fuel and raising tax on ICE vehicles to subsidise these companies to retool quicker in the form of a loan to be paid back or somesuch.

20 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Did someone mention supply and demand?

This would apply but in this situation it´s ridiculous. People are soon going to HAVE to buy an EV.

It´s like saying by 2030 everyone has to own a piece of fairy dust, now we know fairies are rare and we have the power to breed more fairies but instead of that we´re going to make everyone who doesn't have fairy dust pay us more for their pixie dust which is common and has been around for years.

The quickest way to get ICE cars off the roads is to make EVs affordable not to raise the price of ICE cars.People will just keep buying cheaper ICE cars which are worse for the environment than the ones that at least try to be as environmentally friendly as they can.

 

This thread though does show the hypocrisy of many people. Rather than railing against the price of EVs and calling for them to be reduced in price they´d rather them stay expensive bolstering the profits of the manufacturers and staying a luxury item. If people were worried about the environmental damage of ICE cars then they´d be crying out for EVs to be affordable to everyone.

Please don´t spout the EV on here for 8k because be honest how many people is that going to be useful for?

There needs to be an average family saloon EV for the same price as an ICE one.

 

[yesterday 2,022]

29 minutes ago, Keleth said:

 

Please don´t spout the EV on here for 8k because be honest how many people is that going to be useful for?

There needs to be an average family saloon EV for the same price as an ICE one.

 

 

To be honest, Musk can charge so much for the car because enough people have the money to pay for it. 

 

Yes, Tesla is making a lot of money, but to be fair, they are investing that money in new factories to make even more EV's, their production ramp up is very impressive and that all costs a lot money to set up. which comes from the people who can afford a Tesla. 

 

Normally over time, engineers will change bits and pieces on the Tesla, this will maybe make them cheaper to build and then more people can get into the market. and the more vehicles you produce theirs more chance you will notice improvements that can be made, not always TRUE though.

 

When the first ICE cars were made, only rich people could afford them, but that changed as improvements were made and cost fell. Lets hope it goes that way with EV's as well.

 

[fraufruit 42,196]

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

This would apply but in this situation it´s ridiculous

 

We don't have to agree but when people are ordering EV's over a year in advance, I would call that quite the demand.

 

I do want the prices to come down so everyone can buy one.

[Krieg 15,038]

39 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

We don't have to agree but when people are ordering EV's over a year in advance, I would call that quite the demand.

 

I do want the prices to come down so everyone can buy one.

 

Yes, but that's demand in only one segment, and in that segment price is not extremely critical.   The reasonable priced small and mid-size EVs do not even exist yet.   Well, there is the Dacia Spring, but it is shite for more people and you still can get a "much better" ICE for that price.

 

22 hours ago, Dembo said:

 

All the more reason to slap a tax on ICEs.

 

All the more reason to slap a tax on ICEs ;-0

 

 

So the solution is to punish the lower income people.  I see.

[Dembo 525]

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

So the solution is to punish the lower income people.  I see.

 

Which low income people are buying brand new cars? 

 

 

[Krieg 15,038]

3 hours ago, Dembo said:

 

Which low income people are buying brand new cars? 

 

 

 

Plenty.

[scook17 281]

On 11/07/2022, 10:31:55, fraufruit said:

 

Did you really say that?

 

I smile, for what it meant, is for those little trips. If it's the guy or girl, I care not. 

[Keleth 9,315]

3 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Plenty.

Many of those low-income people need a car to be able to earn their low income.

Lol, I just googled average wage in Germany...

Germany | Average Salary Survey 2022

€73k a year or a typical salary is €63k a year.

Well, that goes to show averages are absolute bollocks. Also with that figure, a lot more low-income people would be buying new cars.

 

9 hours ago, fraufruit said:

We don't have to agree but when people are ordering EV's over a year in advance, I would call that quite the demand.

Oh, I´m not saying there isn´t demand but it´s a forced demand.

9 hours ago, yesterday said:

To be honest, Musk can charge so much for the car because enough people have the money to pay for it. 

That I know, but you would think Tesla and mainly its customers would STFU about EVs saving the world because that is not the reason Teslas are being built.No EV built by a major company is being built because of environmental concerns. They´re being built because that´s where the market and the money is and where it will stay.

10 hours ago, yesterday said:

Yes, Tesla is making a lot of money, but to be fair, they are investing that money in new factories to make even more EV's, their production ramp up is very impressive and that all costs a lot money to set up. which comes from the people who can afford a Tesla. 

Investing to make more profit, I´ve not yet seen a company invest their profits back in the business to make the end product for the consumer cheaper, it may make it cheaper to produce but it won´t be shown on the price of the end product unless they still maintain their profit margin.

10 hours ago, yesterday said:

Normally over time, engineers will change bits and pieces on the Tesla, this will maybe make them cheaper to build and then more people can get into the market.

This has not happened in the traditional car market yet.

Major manufacturers spend millions investing in technology to make cars cheaper to produce but that doesn´t show in the cost of the end product.

You would not believe some of the things car manufacturers do to save money on manufacturing. Nothing illegal or dodgy but every part of a car is designed to be made as cheap as it possibly can without cutting corners.

10 hours ago, yesterday said:

 Lets hope it goes that way with EV's as well.

If it doesn´t the transport world is going to have to change dramatically. Well no not the transport world but the whole world basically.

Can you imagine when there are only EVs allowed but many many people cannot afford them what that would do to life as we know it.

What it needs is for one manufacturer to say fuck it instead of making 20% profit on our EVs we´re only going to make 10%.